Inside the Champions League Expansion and the Architecture of Manchesterism

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Kate Mason. So the Champions League is back and several blockbuster fixtures have already gone in the books. Today we'll be getting into whether the new format is just the super league in plain sight and what the future holds for Europe's elite competition. It's Thursday on the Athletic FC so I'm joined by the big hitters as ever in studio. It's former England goalkeeper Rob Green afternoon. Hello and on screen we have our senior news and investigations reporter Matt Slater. Hello. Hello with a lovely backdrop as ever. In New York we have sports journalist of the year Adam Crofton. Hello it's like the BBC joined the World Cup isn't it? You've got this gorgeous kind of green screen and you can see New York behind me. Yeah exactly. Actually it's just curtains. A couple of weeks ago around the draw you were critical of the lack of jeopardy of the big matchups in the Champions League. We've already seen round Madrid against Inter. Now believe versus Arsenal Liverpool versus Athletic home Madrid. But are they starting to get a bit diluted given that they're coming round all the time? I don't know I always like the first week of the Champions League because I think most people don't watch every league across Europe so you're kind of excited to see who's a bit different, who's come in. You know this week I was very lucky looking forward to seeing Real Madrid for the first time under Merinio back in the Champions League and you know and kind of Astor Villa back in the Champions League. So there were storylines to it and obviously Eureola first game for Liverpool in the competition. I just think since that first year where we were kind of deceived I think a little bit into thinking in the last couple of weeks or a couple of the really big clubs might not make it and then you kind of think once you've got seven eight games they just are going to make it when 24 teams qualify. So I think it's kind of good as a showpiece. I just struggle with it a bit when it gets to like the fourth, fifth, sixth week and I feel like there's quite a lot of games that you can probably just you know you might catch a bit of them but if you've not seen them it's kind of okay. And I don't know if that's a good place for a competition to be in. Yeah we hide Robby were on Real Madrid Inter feeling the normal Champions League buzz. It was a really intriguing game one that was into where the better side but it it did feel and these big games feel like now the games that they've gone for the ones that they want in the group stage that every week there is two games that you know at least where they're going to be box office. Those games don't particularly matter so much whether team A beats team B or whether it's a draw or not though those ones are the ones where you feel like the guys are going to shake hands and they say see you later in March see you in April because you know you're pretty much going to get roundabouts to it in the end by hook or by crook as one of the bigger clubs so those games don't really feel like they've got the jeopardy the games also you're looking at Barcelona winning 5-1 at PSG looking winning 6-1 those are still going to come around so I think all in all the bigger clubs out there they kind of pretty much know they're going to get their their abouts by the end so it's how they wanted it is that this is this is what they wanted and this is how it's planning out to be. Yeah to Rob's point Matt Liverpool gets Real Madrid at Amfield is not allowed to happen this season because we've seen it happen the last two but that's fine that can be played in Madrid so it's interesting they're trying to finesse that point we've seen these big games so often in the stage now. Yeah I thought that was interesting that they brought that little wrinkle in it is the third year and I suppose if you think about it just by luck of the draw Liverpool really out of being pulled out in the last two years so yeah they said we don't want that but funny enough they got Liverpool at Let's Go instead and I think this was the fourth tie between them since 2020 so that's six games they've played over the last six years having only played I think a couple of times only a couple of times before so this is going to keep happening and I think this is because of the you know it's actually everyone calls it the Swiss model is the most misnaming of all time right the idea that they're based on these sort of chess tournaments the way those tournaments work is they redraw after each round so you can imagine doing a fixes list I mean I was a broadcast to be complete nightmare the idea is you know you sort of winners play winners blah blah blah blah blah so the tables are always moving anyway that's not what they do they use this pot system so four pots and this goes to Rob's point that we do get in every match week we get a couple from the from the first pot don't we and I don't think you know there's much jeopardy there for the reasons that Rob and both Adam and and but they both pointed out that they've got eight games and they've also got that kind of lucky lose around as well that we've seen PSG and Raal and others come through those it's almost like you're trying to avoid that to rest your squad and I think that only really applies to the Premier League I don't think other leagues see those extra two games as as such a as such a burden because they can already you know this is the thing about PSG isn't it they have almost two squads they have a a league earn squad and they have a a Champions League squad so look I I don't think it's ideal but one of the reasons we got here is because we were having these dead rubbers in the group stage of the of the you know before you know you'd you'd you'd have a good team would win the first four games five games and then you know throw throw the B team in for match for match six so it I think it is just a bit of a kind of a structural flaw of these competitions if we want jeopardy from the off let's go complete you know 80s 90s let's let's let's go champions being drawn against champions in round one bad luck and they didn't like that idea I can assure you well he's interesting what saying covering the games for CBS yeah the year before this new model came in we covered out of the six group games five were Manchester United because they were going out because it was so chaotic under 10 hard the games were just you know incredible so we ended up everyone wanted to watch Manchester United because it was it was a bit of a sinking ship it actually in this new model brings a bit of variance into it yes all the big teams are playing each other and it might not mean much but we resulted ended up to go into Manchester United every week because that was the story there was only one story so if you're thinking of stories you're thinking of actual mixing it up this has brought it from a TV perspective into a different realm so ultimately we're saying then that Matt that this new format is proving pretty successful for FIFA for UEFA particularly given there attracting these big new sponsors like never before including Hyundai yeah so look in the last week or so kind of to get you know some drum up some interest I mean not that they should need to drum up interest in this thing they've they've announced a load of new sponsors and yeah Hyundai's a good one higher you know that make kind of white goes domestic appliances in new fanatics deal that's the thing with the little gimmick with the debutant badges a new extension of their broadcast deal in China I think there's one in India coming look they've they've got lots of good good stories to tell right there's no doubt about that but I think we should just always remember that they've got a lot more games to sell so everything should go up so when they went to this new model they went from 125 total games to 189 so you know what was 50% more games so there was actually an interesting report this week done by Nielsen Sports who are a kind of audience data specialists and they were sort of saying this is a big hit this is a big commercial success you know the viewing figures are fantastic you know suddenly if we think about CBS I believe you know for the final last year I think it was 3.1 million people watched that it was the biggest most watched game in sort of US history for English language that was modern double the 2019 figure so it's doubled in in seven years and that I think the real story around CBS of course is is is is how clippable the kind of the show is the Galatso show and their numbers there are off the charts like billions of people built you know up sort of 50% 60% in a season so it's been it has been a success but my the only sort of caveat I'd say is they have more inventory they have more games to sell they've got a whole different approach they've got a new marketing agency there's lots of things they've changed and yes probably the most famous change is Heineken which was almost you know kind of part of the show wasn't almost as much as part of the you know the star on the ball and the anthem well that's been that's going to be replaced by Budweiser a bm a bnbev one one the deal after 30 years so you know yes things have changed they're doing longer term deals they're bundling the compositions up there's lots of little changes they're doing but just just that one caveat they are selling more games so things should go up so it sounds as though Matt is also emphasizing that there's more eyeballs on this competition in the States does that feel like that's a big focus for you Afer I mean it's a focus for everyone in in sport you know I mean just last week I was with Ricky Pondtinger a very famous former Cricket and and Cricket are trying to make it in America and rugby this weekend we'll be trying to make it in America when New Zealand plays South Africa but you know there are certain football soccer competitions that are already really big here and they are the Premier League the Champions League LaLiga not really but Barcelona and Real Madrid definitely and you know really what what we got with this new format it is it's kind of what the teams were implying with the Super League which is that what the audience want is more of the big players playing against the big players and more of the big teams playing against the big teams and if you can sprinkle that in with as Matt says you know very clipable social coverage and if you can sprinkle that in with brilliant co-commentary as well are on CBS thank you very much then you know you you develop a very strong product because the reality is it's a weird time of the day for many of these games in the United States you know you are talking I mean that you know for the games that there's some games that still kick off on at like five or six o'clock in Europe so they're starting kind of lunchtime on the east coast morning on the west coast what I think what you do get is like kids coming home from school you know turning it on which is quite a nice time for those kind of later games but you're still basically relying on people working but not working and double screening in offices and maybe like just leaving the office and going to a bar you know I think it would be great for a CBS for example if there was a couple of game weeks or some of the knockout rounds at the weekend that would also be like nuclear war with the Premier League and Serie A and La Liga as well because they're all competing for that time but certainly you know if if I was relevant who sell these rights to TV networks that is one of the things I don't know that they are by the way this is just my idea I guess that is one of the things I would be pushing for if you want to take that US deal and that US money even further you turn this into that Saturday morning Sunday morning slot for the Premier League has claimed but that would be a big big battle that I'm not sure your way for actually wants to take on. Well we saw plans for a European Super League fall apart when they were announced back in 2021 and this is an ongoing conversation it feels like because you could make an argument that the New Look Champions League is a Super League in all but name? I don't know I mean there's certainly some teams who appear to be locked in for it you know in terms of you know Real Madrid and Barcelona and Afflecco Madrid probably in Samilan are going to be there every year Manchester City maybe you would say over the past decade for sure but you know if you say the concept of the Super League was a locked format where it would be the same teams and it wouldn't be very easy at all for other teams to get into it I don't think it's fair to say that what we've got now is the Super League you know we've got teams in it this year in the Champions League like Aston Villa, Como, Saba who play Manchester United I mean Saba I hadn't heard of until about three months ago so that in itself maybe that just means I'm a bad sports journalist but it could also mean that you know this is a this is a format that still remains open to kind of upstarts and challenges I think why where there is a Super League sense is I do think we have a feeling now that there's probably six teams who can win it every year and maybe I'll defer to kind of a couple of the older people on our podcast on whether it's always felt like that I find that quite offensive actually I think he's talking to you looking around the room there's not many of us in here yeah or whether this there was previously a sense of anyone can win it you know that anyone who's in the competition can win it because I think now I look at Arsenal Manchester City Barcelona Real Madrid by Munich PSG and it's hard to imagine another team than that wins the Champions League this season and it's kind of felt like that maybe for the last couple of years but I don't know what does it feel different to to you guys throwing the floor to the older people and while I'll speak for the older generation the other side yes thank you put me walking stick down put it sir it's I think it's you know gone other days red start boring their way to a final and and getting it over the line through penalty shootout against Marseille that was you know those sorts of days along on I don't think I think the gap is so big the a team who who are qualifying you know we talk about Sabah they've had to go through four qualifying rounds to get to this stage each one being the underdog is pretty pretty nuts in itself so there there is stories in there it's just a different it's coming in at a different level now it's qualifying for the Champions League so yeah it's cool that they're getting in to this stage but the likelihood of them going any further is almost non-existent them them playing Manchester United is their final right that that sort of thing so they might not have got that in the old format they might have got a a Villarreal and another and a Porto or a sporting and not had that moment against one of the the Giants he it's changed the narrative a little bit it's changed the the interest in that but I feel really now that when we were talking last week about players just wanting to get to the Premier League you will end up with players just wanting to get now to those clubs that can compete to win that this tournament and it doesn't matter super league Champions League whatever it's called it doesn't matter it's just that's where we are it's just the pinnacle yes points yeah okay so so just because we're making this comparison Mark or making this this statement about where this sits in terms of the growth of the Champions League and whether this is a sort of end point and because of the change in format does that mean we're unlikely to see any talk about super league plans resurfacing I mean sure I just know right because it's really hard to kill an idea and and like the idea of a European super league a break away it's been through so many kind of different names and iterations has been played by the big cups I'll be the 90 days he's correspondent for about 45 years maybe I think the first reference to when I was doing my research on the European super league there are references in in the 60s so this this is a this is as old as this is older than me older than me unbelievable extraordinary thought so I didn't actually know football was invented before you was very different yeah slower your heavy balls and all that footballs and so yes it's been around for a while this idea which is why you can't kill it and the big clubs in particular will keep playing this card as a threat every time they want something and that is the story of the Champions Leagues you know changes through the years so we what if we think about what we've got now yes I would agree with your original question I can sort of see the points that Adam's making there is enough change I think also Adam was showing off by saying that he's heard of Sabah two or three months ago that that that is unbelievable knowledge I don't know that last week would you question guys that if as a hypothetical and dread to thought for for everybody in the in the leagues but the next TV deal for the Premier League goes stale or even dread to thought of it going down would this threat then become more real do you feel well I've been I've been jumping after but I just very quickly so the domestic deals have been flat for for a while now and in fact on a on a per game basis they've been falling so that that scenario has already happened it's only really kind of stayed the same because we've been selling more games they've just given sky more and more and more games the flip side of that argument of course is the the massive popularity of the Premier League around the world so the international deals have done brilliantly I guess if what you're saying is let's just say both go flat but let's just say the American interest the Chinese the Far East whatever and and yeah well yeah it comes back it comes back like we've got this wave of money that are attracted to our teams they've come because they think the trend is their friend and that this is this sort of getting bigger we talked about it a few weeks ago didn't we kind of it's the it's the play against AI it's you know there there is the scarcity value of these big things that we care about so much let's just say that that whole thesis is wrong yeah then then you start looking around and going whoa we need to do something radical that this this this Premier League thing isn't working let's let's let's get out that old European super league idea again let's go NFL of Europe which is basically where we were seven six five six years ago when the ESL idea was percolating it's where we were 15 20 years ago it's where we were 25 years ago when they went from a knockout to the first group stage you know this idea comes up at these moments of crisis so yes it can come back the reason we haven't talked about it much is because we've got this new thing and it and the clubs are happy enough with it and also because the European super league was such an embarrassing failure that I think it I think the dust has to settle for a while the whole kind of almost a generation needs to forget about it and the and the and the ideas that have come like the unified league just utter nonsense so we're waiting for like another great idea really and I would add to that you're also watching FIFA fall over the feet and land flat on the face trying to sell off football trying to sell off the well cup learn from other people's mistakes do not go down the road that you've just gone all the one that they're going to and there's a wonderful idea it is affecting what the the the champions league is affecting the European championship ticket prices so they're making them cheaper they can make them cheaper because their cash cow is the champions league right so you the championships can be cheaper just make it make it free just send it out there's a gift to the the people of Europe but right and also you're saying that you have this opportunity at the moment Adam to be the good guys in comparison with the FIFA bad guys doing all these McIntyre things we've obviously seen the competition that we're talking about grow from 32 to 36 having said all of this in the context of all of these these conversations could you see it expanding again oh what the the champions league yeah as in to have more teams in it running on the same kind of logic that we're sitting this kind of more is more football conversation I mean they all going to have to change the name at some point aren't there there's not many champions in the champions league it's got to be the fifth and sixth and seventh face league what Adam see I think I think the whole point about this is the thing that people are worried about this is the thing that domestic leagues are worried about with this new format it's very scalable so I don't think you go more teams you go more games don't forget the original idea was 10 games eight games was a compromise they wanted to go from six to 10 guaranteed and the domestic leagues were like hold on a minute you know how do you do that without encroaching on weekends without squeezing us you know more so eight is a compromise would they go to 10 yeah absolutely if we have a sort of scenario that Rob's just outlined and you get leagues going clubs going well my domestic deals going down I need I need I need more games I need more games against buying and real and let's go and all that yeah that could happen what what I would love and this is the opposite but I think it would be it would be that it would make it the best products if there was less games so if you had the same amount of teams in the league but you had six games instead of eight games I've not done the math so how that would all work out but that would be amazing because the the the jeopardy that you have would then be restored and then actually if you did lose again early on then you are genuinely in trouble and you can't recover but from what Matt says that's not going to happen the people who are in most danger are the people who run the EFL Cup they're going to get chopped this is where it's going to go and then the FA Cup and that's where it's going to go is is we're going to have to tread on someone's toes well how how are these how these clubs going to get more games into a diary that is already full well you're going to have to lose games somewhere so you'll end up with an EFL Cup with no European teams in it I completely agree with Robert and you know even the I there's now an FA Cup game week isn't there is like a midweek I don't know if it's the fourth or the fifth round yeah certainly was one of the last couple of seasons I mean that was kind of unimaginable 15 years ago 20 20 years ago and you know and even this you know this past I mean I didn't know there was EFL Cup games last night until they became amazing until I saw someone on Twitter ranting about Daniel Farca and I said what could Daniel Farca have possibly done during this Champions League game week that is making a leads fan so upset and it turns out he'd lost against Chelsea who I also forgot weren't in European competition so you're right that there is a danger that these competitions become lost I think what's interesting as well though is for all the the questions we're raising about it you know what from what we're seeing from these networks like CBS and CBS I think are now going to go into the UK aren't they from next season of the year after maybe the next season yeah and Rob's going to let us know if it's going to be exactly the same format and which candidates are going to move over and we're going to get the studio show if they need any presenters if they need any presenters clinging on myself don't worry guys if they need any US based journalists and also the brands as we've said clearly like it so whatever questions are being raised here by you know I was on a podcast or fans saying oh this is a bit this is a bit a bit less exciting brands seem to like it I mean they've even changed the matchball you know that they are now I think it'd be an adidas for two decades now they're in talks with Nike for it to become Nike and you know as much as we make out that UEFA are kind of the good guys they're not after the money you know what would they what they do last week the debut patches that was kind of a FIFA kind of inspired thing you know FIFA did it for the World Cup and that you know I think UEFA saw well that's a pretty harmless way you know to make a bit more money the trading cards you know with fanatics they don't they're not so different you know they're not so different hey listen UEFA you want the domestic leagues to go to 18 teams and one cup competition that's what they want so that's Spain that's Italy and England losing two teams moving away from the Champions League then and throwing ahead to the weekend where we'll see Manchester United and Man City meet in the first Manchester Derby of the season don't forget you can catch Friday's tactical preview show from the athletic FC ahead of that one we are joined now by former Manchester City Chief Executive Gary Cook Gary great to see you great to see you too thanks for having me on now a biggie to start with Gary how do you quantify the role of Manchester United and Man City playing in the globalization of Manchester how Manchester has seen across the world well let's you know it's a great point and I think we we sort of started off you know over a hundred years ago with with a Derby there are many around the world as we all know Sunday we'll see the 199th version so we're going to see 200 of them this the 200 this year and and they started off really sort of they were they were a distraction from the industrial north you know it was sort of an entertainment product that created conversation and narrative in pubs and workshops and and and and and that was a really important part of the fabric of the community but I think if you jump all the way across into 1992 and the formation of the Premier League you've got a global platform telling stories you've got a global foot they've got a football club creating the stories so you're creating awareness you've got travel around the world is growing media is growing and we're now attracting or it was attracting capital investment so these two football teams were now starting to attract the commercial world into and generating economic fuel into the city of Manchester it was quite amazing really then if you then jump to 2005 the Glazer family take over the football club at Manchester United Shekman saw takes over the club Manchester City and I was privileged to be a part of that but during the selling process to Shekman saw we were selling an investment in the Manchester economy not a football team that was going to play every weekend at three o'clock that it was a very different proposition all built off this this new global media product so sport and football and now had become a growth driver for an economy so really quite an amazing thought when you think that once upon a time it was about it was about housing or transport or health or education now sport and media is driving an economy non more so than in Manchester where Sir Howard Bernstein and Sir Richard Lee's who ran the City Council actually were using football and sport to leverage and grow their city they applied to get the Olympic Games didn't get it they got the Commonwealth Games Commonwealth Games then turned into a stadium which turned into a football club which then turned into new ownership and the coming together the perfect storm of property development politics and economics all working together but at the very heart of it a two football clubs is I mean if you think about it then take it a stage further our new prime minister was there at the same time he was seeing it and living it and working it and now he believes in devolution he believes in giving cities the opportunity to grow and build that attract inward investment so I remember times where we would take Manchester City on tour and Sir Richard Lee's and Sir Howard would come as a delegation to attract inward investment from overseas now that's a different way to think of the Darby David Gillen I used to sit and talk about should we play the Darby in Beijing or New York as part of a let's build Manchester so I don't want to overplay it because I think we underestimate the role that those two football clubs have played in this city and what was once a local presence is now a global relevance and I think that's an important part we're seeing it more and more across the world and you mentioned it in what you just said there Gary but you were involved in brokering the deal that sold Manchester City to the Abu Dhabi United Group in 2008 and of course served as Chief Executive so it sounds as though this was the story you were telling to those potential investors yes you can be part of a club but you can also be part of the development of a major global city is that is that right well it's absolutely right and what you know in the early presentations to Sheikh Mansour's team it we we were talking about the realm that was once called Eastlands and it was the city of Manchester Stadium and we were talking about the corridor of property development to join the city of Manchester to the stadium and the city then decided that it would be good to put a transport mechanism and network which of course Andy Burnham again is bigger to connect people to places and once we did that we were then talking more about the opportunity for economic growth to get the support of the council and the government at the same time putting the football club on a global stage how did you sell it to the players when you're saying you sold the project to Sheikh Mansour and then to other investors you know the names like Rabinio and other famous players who had to take that first step from Manchester City being another Premier League club to what would to be the powerhouse that it is now. Yes that's a that's a great point you know if you think back at the time we decided that we wanted to build a campus and the reason that we wanted to build a campus was we wanted the players to see the journey from the very beginnings of their career with the inspiration or the aspiration to play in the stadium which was going to be improved and on that basis we needed to have the training facility close by the stadium and in fact we're one of the few in the world that that did that and with that we attracted again more commerce but we attracted great players. Great players you know we all know the economics of football it's well documented but there's an element beyond economics that has to say to a professional player at the highest level you will be working every day in one of the best environments in the world and if you deliver that to them you've got a different point of view than most football clubs anywhere else and so you then put yourself alongside Real Madrid and Barcelona and Bayern Munich by virtue of having a great place for a great club and I think that that was important so it was all part of a well-rounded integrated strategy to build a football club. Gary is mentioning some big big name place that of course are huge football cities but do you feel as though Manchester has a case for being one of the biggest football cities in the world right now? Yeah well I was going to I was going to really sort of threat to Gary because I'm I don't live too far from Manchester I'm in Maclosfield I'm surrounded by city and United fans and they're very proud of their city and they're very proud of their football teams and they certainly feel that they are the biggest football city in the in the UK and and I think kind of increasingly they're starting to feel they're the biggest city in the world now look you know Buenos Aires, Madrid, Milan they'll be plenty of other people London they'll be plenty of other places that are saying hold on a hold yeah hold on a minute but Gary you know you you know you you've lived there you've worked there you know for a moment I think on Sunday Manchester's going to be it's going to fill that way isn't it for certainly for a couple of hours you know the eyeballs of the world? Yes it is Matt and I think if you also track back the history you know we see growth beyond just the football match itself you see tertiary businesses one deloitte one of the largest sports business consulting businesses based in Manchester we see you know a digital digital elements in sport basing themselves in Manchester and we see continued investment firms living and working in Manchester investing in sport so it's the tertiary businesses that get created but I also flip that over and and having worked in Saudi Arabia and the United States you going to any airport and you'll see a man city jersey and a man United Jersey sitting alongside each other you know available to the masses in in other countries and we've seen massive commercial growth so I think those that are from Manchester are still getting what they always did which is the local rivalry the narrative on Monday morning whichever way the outcome however we've also got this new audience where people in China people in India people around the world are going to be talking about that Derby we've seen people attending the Derby from overseas and around the world so we've just got a much bigger stage on which we play Gary I want to pick up you I mean you said that you know you were taught with David Gil and you'd have ideas for different ways to kind of grow that that brand of the Derby and the rivalry which I guess you know Spain have did so effectively maybe organically with El Clasico as well when you were starting to do that did you find Manchester United wanting to go on that journey with Manchester City or being kind of anxious and resistant because you know it was the it was the kind of train coming down the tracks behind them I think that if I I'd be lying if I was to say that it was all guns blazing let's go let's not let's just go get it done and David a very a great operator and a prudent operator was having to manage his own brand and so that was understandable I was a bit more let's not the door down and let's go and and David always had a very considered view on what that what the outcome might be he had a brand to protect now Adam I will say this at the time nobody was really aware of what Shekman saw was going to do with the football club there was there wasn't the sustained longevity that we've seen that has been delivered with the commitment that they've made and we've seen all too many times in football owners come and go they quickly get excited and they quickly lose interest but we see two football clubs with sustainable ownership with sustainable operational behavior developing profitability and growth and making a difference in a city so when David and I used to sit there and talk about these opportunities David would say you know we've never really talked about that before but it makes a lot of sense and and I would sort of be very aggressive and and but I think we were always trying to manage the I think it took I don't think they actually played Matt you'll probably know better than I did I will but they didn't end up playing the Darby in I think they first one they played in China was about five years ago six years ago so it took a long time for the belief that two great products coming together as a great brand both had carrying the same name which is also important was was a great opportunity so to be clear you meant exhibition games rather than premier league games yeah you know you can mix some of that together there was a parlaying conversation at the Premier League where we were always thinking about the 19th sort of 39th game if you remember that was a conversation so these are all just anecdotal revival of time aren't they but now when you step forward and you look at time as it has passed us a lot of those ideas weren't the silliest ideas were they but at the time you know media tended to criticise anything that was remotely out of the box thinking but now we look back at it's it all seems a bit old fashioned thinking about the box thinking and it's just a cursory when you talk about the relationship between the two clubs an ultimate of mine Carlos Tevers were you the brains behind the welcome to Manchester poster I would be professionally naive if I was to lie to you that came across my desk and it was brought upon me by a company called anomaly who we use I used them when looking after Michael Jordan's brand for Nike and they said what do you think and it was just that's a moment you that's just a moment you just you'll never that moment will never come back and you have to make a decision right there and then and you have to decide whether it's a go or a no go and we decided to go with it of course again with hindsight seemed like a pretty clever idea but because the media value that it created exceeded 120 million dollars within six months and it created again going back to our Manchester Darby relevance it created quite a story in Manchester pretty created a much bigger story worldwide and so so yeah it it was I'll never say anything was my idea it was a group of people but yeah we pulled the trigger on that and we didn't hesitate so much so that our friend Sir Alex Ferguson who I have the greatest respect for and who wouldn't it brought to his attention and we were at a Bobby Charlton dinner and we ended up talking about that very subject but it was very brief and Alex didn't want to go into any detail on that one you mentioned early obviously Andy Burnham is now the prime minister he was the mayor of Manchester until very recently he's kind of explaining that his vision for the country is a bigger form of what he calls Manchesterism how much of Manchesterism is actually footballism to you and and also I mean you mentioned Howard Bernstein Richard Lease before how much of what's happened with regards to that growth you know you mentioned some of the things that have come to Manchester you know you could add the Brits now which have now moved you've got the BBC you've got the NBA are bringing a game there they may well bring a franchise there as well how much of it was Andy carrying on work and how much of it was down to him would you say I think all of the above Andy Burnham you know grew up in the in the so Howard Bernstein so Richard Lease era but it was as much to do with economics Lord Jim O'Neill one of Andy Burnham's close friends and certainly one of the great economists talk talks about devolution which is basically empowering the city that you live in to attract and and leverage all of your assets to attract private investment in order to generate economic growth and the and the government can support that and so that fundamental economic policy is one that Andy Burnham believed strongly in and that's how I would define Manchesterism it was a way to attract private investors into helping you build your city and you have to try and find a way to help support them in their quest to give them preferential circumstances Gary one just quick one for me just to finish up I think you've done some pretty cool jobs after Man City as well you know UFC you mentioned the Saudi pro league and of course Birmingham City so I'm thinking about kind of lots of almost disruptor type brands there you know brands on the up do you think what happened in Manchester can be replicated do you think for example the Birmingham could do it I think I'll go back to my point I made earlier Matt if I may the education health transport and now sport and media going to Adam's point is the is the Manchesterism that was that it was on the agenda in Manchester sport was on the agenda as a way to as a catalyst for economic growth if if we as a nation believe that any city can generate continued economic growth and leverage sport for that very purpose and and football in particular then we will see continued economic growth now Birmingham City was another example I was the CEO at Birmingham City and knighted capital the owners were also interested in not just buying a football club but change in the landscape of Birmingham that attracted them to buy the hundred franchise it attracted them to to continue to build and grow and look at opportunities working with city of Birmingham University and from there you would hope that this is the way that the future economic circumstances are going to change for the positive by using and bringing sport into the mix a lot more than we perhaps have done in the past