Richard Jolly on Copa Independent (World Cup 2026): "I don't see this year as City being in the real band of top tier...

Hello, welcome to Copper Independent, the independence football podcast. I'm Lawrence Osla and I'm joined by fellow independent writers Miguel Baleini. Hi, Migs. Hello. And Richard Jolly. Hello, Rich. Hello. And today we are discussing this season's Champions League. It is back, possibly a bit too soon for my liking, but it's back. We are going to look at who might win it, teams, fixtures to watch in the league phase and how the Premier League's increasing financial muscle impacts the tournament or perhaps doesn't will get on to that a bit later. We'll also make some predictions at who will reach semi finals and potentially win the tournament. Guys, I've just spent the last 10 minutes thinking about you as Champions League teams. Miguel, I've come up with you as a Debutiva Lakerunia 2004 and Rich, AC Milan 1990. Rich experienced, ruthless, sophisticated and Miguel sort of fearless and attacking, quite entertaining. Didn't actually win anything. Didn't get the final. It's time in the end, but great memories. Happy with that. Nucked out and caught a dull way by Rina's portal, I think. I'm very, I'm very happy. I mean, that 90 blind teams, one of the greatest teams in history. I'm not sure what I've done to deserve that. That's how I think about you, Rich. Fun. I've got no more comments. Well, we've got the Champions League league phase. I still think it's a terrible name for it. Can anyone have come up with something slightly better? Yeah, the Champions League. I still call it the group stage. Yeah, I think that's fine. They could have, I sort of feel like they could have done quite American, like the main event or, I don't know, the mega. What do they call it? American supposed to regular season? Well, yeah, I suppose so. Yeah, actually, that's quite dull, isn't it? I don't know if peace in this morning, if it did depend on the Tuesday in which I sort of refer to wallpaper football. There is just a little bit, I mean, look, it's wallpaper. That is nice to look at. Every time you look at it, there's something new to catch your eye. The organizers or those who do the logistics and kind of incorporate all the different systems and formulas that they test, they're in a bit of an oom video's position because they have to try and adapt around what European football is. I like, so like, obviously, the ideal here would be a group stage that is like the late 90s or early 2000s where most of the games, even the gaming and PSVI and Hove or Dynamo Kiev for an English team, feels quite exacting. That's pretty much impossible in the modern era, so they have to work around that. But it does mean that, like, there's no sense of re-event of the, and even the kind of the big fixtures around, there are a lot because that's the point of the system. They're kind of just things that happen. They've sort of, like, a regular season is almost, because they've sort of turned it into, as if it's just a normal league, if you know what I mean. You don't necessarily think about, well, I've got to be around for that one in mid-Actober, because it doesn't really matter that much. Well, it's also, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? It's the lack of jeopardy. I mean, it's a regular league, but the winner is irrelevant. You have to finish in the top eight, and if you don't, it's probably fine. If you're a good team anyway, obviously PSG won it, finishing what? In the 20th or whatever they finished. I mean, I was looking at this yesterday. It was a little bit surprised by how high it was in the end. Previously, they went in needing results. They didn't finish top eight, but they did finish 11th and 15th. Right. But again, that's slightly devalues the point of finishing in the top eight. I'd slightly disagree with that. I'd say that arguably PSG is sort of a force of their own, and maybe they're the only team that can win it, coming 15th and 11th. And certainly, I would say a Premier League team to win it, just because the workload they have would very much want that top eight finish just for those two extra mid weeks off. And if you look last season, with the way the draw is done these days, with the top two finishes in the league phase being kept apart, Arsenal knew they could not face Bayern Munich until the final, and Arsenal's path through the knockout phase was reasonably friendly, I think you would say. And so, if you finish high up often enough, you will get your reward. I mean, go back a year earlier, and Arnestlott was quite fond of mentioning how unlucky Liverpool were for winning the actual group stage, and then drawing PSG in the last 16. But as a general rule, as I say, if you finish high up often enough, you will get a benefit from it. And if you finish low down often enough, unless you are PSG, you probably will suffer from it. And to use an example as to why a top eight finish really does matter for most teams. Last season, Inter Milan won their first four group games. At that point looked well on course for a top eight finish. The fixture list was really quite backloaded, and so they struggled in the next four, just missed out on the top eight, drew Boda Glimpt, got knocked out, didn't even reach the last 16. Whereas for a long period of time, you think, well, they'll be straight into the last 16 as the team who's finished fifth or sixth. So Rich, do you like this format? I like elements of it. I came into it skeptical about some things with an open mind on others. I didn't like the fact there were six English teams last year. I thought that was excessive, for instance. I'm going to still think five is a bit excessive, but I thought six was ridiculous. I found it's had some benefits that I may be wasn't expecting, and possibly in some cases weren't even intended by the organizers, because as Miguel said, one of the reasons for it was let's have more games. Let's have more Liverpool versus Real Madrid. Let's have more by Munich versus Paris and German. I think some of the unexpected benefits have actually come for some of the smaller clubs who are never going to win it, and we're never going to win it down there any other way. But I think it's been better for them, and an example I would use a couple of years ago, I was at the last group game, where it was Manchester City against Club Brugger, and at half-time City behind the game and going out, they turned it around to win the game, City get through, but Club Brugger also get through in 24th place out of 24. Now, their fans and their players were celebrating at the end, because that's a big achievement for them. And the old group phase, draw Club Brugger in the same group as two really big clubs, they're going out, simple as that. This one, they can go through in 24th, and then having done that, they actually beat Atalanta in the next round, so they got through to the last 16. So I think some of the benefits have actually come for Club Brugger and for Bodo Glimpt, even if the format was not actually designed for them at all. Similar to the World Cup in the sense of that format, although it lacked a bit of jeopardy, it did give a route to some maybe smaller nations to get into a knockout game that they never would have got to, you know, for eight years before or whatever. But also, what I'd say there, the World Cup, the part the problem with the World Cup was, you looked at the group stage, who got knocked out, who we'd expected to go through. Well, it was probably Uruguay and no one else. But I think if you look at the Champions League tables from the first two years, you've actually had some teams getting knocked out, and I think most people would have expected to get through. So it has been more competitive in that respect. And I mean, last year, Napoli, reigning Champions of Italy, a team that, if you two before, we're an apple again, a finish. I think people might have said, well, perhaps 10th, 12th, 14th, they came 30th and went out. Athletic Bill Baal came 28th and went out. Marseille came 25th, partly because of the Benfica goalkeeper scored a goal. But those, I think, were all teams that we probably would have expected to be somewhere in that top 24. So in that respect, I think I've found it a bit more interesting than I expected in terms of who doesn't even make that 24 team cut. But I think some of this points to kind of another issue that the Champions League has sort of forced, which is obviously like the World Cup, it's just made the calendar so packed and a real challenge for clubs, and they've got to consider it a lot now, is how you weather it. So even like a team like Napoli, you should probably be better equipped than others. But they're one of a few that suddenly just kind of get a bit of a jolt from having to navigate these kind of multiple demands. Same with Athletic. Athletic Bill Baal just weren't able to go through two calendars of that size at once. And just on the party side of your man point, the one side, I think, I sort of agreed they were forced to row, but the one side they could do what they do and maybe buy a Munich. But by, I mean, it just won't finish 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I think in the first year, they have to correct me if I'm wrong in the first year. They were running it pretty close for top eight, but you do just look at buy and they think they won't finish 15th, whereas PSG almost can, and it doesn't matter. The draw might be the slightly mad thing. I don't know if you guys watch the draw, I'm sure you did Miguel. Slightly sort of mad protracted event that probably doesn't need to be an event, like it could just be an email. I had a little look at Optus analysis of the draw. They say, I mean, one of the flaws is that teams have quite varying difficulties of eight fixtures. So Stutt got the easiest fixtures and Liverpool the easiest among the Premier League clubs, that's because both of them play at Letico and Inter from Pot 1. So essentially got the easiest big teams to play. And at the other end of the scale, Sabah from Azerbaijan, they have the toughest fixtures. They've got Arsenal, Bayern, Dortmund, Napoli, Villarreal, but they do at least get to play Man United. And then Man City have the toughest Premier League fixtures. So they play Barcelona, PSG, Porto Sporting, Napoli and Leipzig. Just one thing I would say on the wallpaper point is they think about what it is. It's a bit like a league season. As I say, you don't really necessarily go into it, anticipating the big fixtures. I think you do that on the Premier League now. But it's almost like you get it a week. Oh, what's on? And like to be fair, one thing I would say about it is good, interesting, entertaining, fun things do happen when it's on, because basically it's all the big football teams trown together. Like it's still like, it's a scoring. It's like scoring was quite a good example of that. Yeah. It sort of just throws up something quite fun. Yeah, I wouldn't completely just do it down like that that way. There's still a lot to it. It's just about, it's just a necessary navigation of other problems. And it's just a sense that what actually matters isn't coming until, until February. Although it's just an unreachable point as well, about who qualifies. It is a bit like the World Cup in the sense that you have all these extra games. And then suddenly you get to the last 16. And it's large, which is the kind of traditional kind of cutoff point from group to knockoff stage. And you get to that last 16. And on the whole, bar maybe one surprise that we always had. Anyway, it's, it's pretty much just, you know, as expected. I disagree with that actually. And I think one of the surprise, good things with this new form has been that round of 24. Because it's produced some upsets. And I mentioned one last year, which was the Bodo glimped into Milan one. Another one last year was the Galatasaray Juventus one. I mean, that round of 24 has been absolutely brutal for Italian clubs. Because the year before Asalanta, AC Milan and Juventus all went out. But does that not speak more to Italian's football strength now? I mean, it does to a certain extent, but you look at who those they've gone out to. You just into Milan should still beat Bodo glimped. Asalanta should still beat club brother. AC Milan and Juventus went out to Dutch clubs. It was fine. Or in PSVI. I didn't want to say that. Is that why that does that for me say something bigger? I mean, yes and no. But in terms of, in terms of budgets, in terms of the actual caliber of the players, the one that I think you could argue reflected maybe a shifted football economics was Juventus Galatasaray last year. With the way Turkish clubs have started to spend and you get players going from Syria to Turkey. I mean, Victor Ossmann being a prime example. But I mean, there's no way that in terms of budget and talent and history and everything else that inter should be going out to Bodo glimped. Or that even Asalanta as a relatively small Italian club should be going out to club brother. Any fixtures that stand out to you guys from the list and the league phase? Anything that jumped off the page? I'm quite a convoy to seeing Komu in action. Yeah. This is Fabric Gassi's Komu. They play... Do they play Manianite? Am I right saying that? They do, yeah, yeah. Any other games that stand out to you guys? All of those involving Komu to a degree. The thing is, you look at fixtures like, say, Virial Napoli. That's something that could have been a bit of intrigue to it because it's an element of competitiveness to it. But we sort of just don't know. And obviously, as we mentioned with the big club, what draws your attention, like, buy an arsenal or something like that. But, I mean, from the evidence of previous seasons, it's mostly table setting. This is as Rich has touched on. This has been one of the ironies of the systems. They wanted more big games. But even UEFA have realized a little bit of an issue with these big games because they've had to introduce this kind of... This rule where Madrid couldn't play an anfield again, because that's too much of the same thing, which is a bit of an issue. What do they rule out and repeat fixtures from last season? I remember people could play a Real Madrid, but Madrid couldn't go to Anfield again. Right, okay. Yeah, well, they've had it two years in a row. So it was the case of saying they can't have it three years in a row. Because Liverpool have beaten Real at home two years in a row. Yeah, I mean, in terms of the fixtures, some of the ones that... There's a lot that stand out and a lot that are potentially good. And obviously over eight rounds of fixtures and 36 teams, you could name far too many. So I just said, look at the second match day. There was several that caught my eye. And one of them is that Jose Mourinho is actually starting off at Real Madrid against two of his old clubs, Inter Milan first, Roma second. And there's a big question, is Jose still the Jose of old? I think most people would say no, including Miguel. But he would say, well, he hasn't had the chance to win the Champions League for 10 years or whatever. So I think that will be interesting. There's Athletico Madrid against Manchester United, which I know you were... You noticed earlier, Lawrence, that Manchester United have somehow been put a head of Athletico in terms of chances of winning this, which doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me when Athletico were in the semi-final last year. And there are quite a lot of doubts about them. And another one in the second round that looks really good to me is Manchester City, Paris and German, because you could argue City will one of the reasons for changing the format, in that they always seem to be in these really formulaic groups in the four team groups. They haven't got to grips with the new group. The first time they came 22nd, even last time around, they ended up in the top eight, but they took a really weird path to doing it. They lost at home to buy a Lavercuse, and they lost a Bodo glimpt. And the way at the Bernabéu in the process, but in the last two years, they've gone out in the last 24, and gone out in the last 16. Obviously Pep Guardiola is gone now, Enza Moresca is here, maybe Paris and German, it doesn't matter to them if they win a group game or not. But I think that one would be a big test to see where Manchester City are at, because I think I don't see this year as City being in the real band of top tier of favourites. I put them in the second tier, the teams who need everything to go right, for them to win it. It's probably what's just a kind of recognising that we're acknowledging it. There's a bit of a historic landmark here, and it's quite a coincidence that Maurinio returns to the top level in the same year that an at-real Madrid, because his great rival from that previous record period, Pep Guardiola, isn't in the Champions League for the first time since 2013. Like that, that's quite, you know, it's quite a vacuum. Given what, he's been given how much the kind of the storyline of Guardiola has dominated so much the Champions League over that period, how much he's conditioned the entire tactical framework of the competition. With City, though, I do just wonder, I mean, they have spent a lot, it's been huge turnover of the team, and I'm sure they'd point to how the net spend is relatively low, but obviously the wage bill remains one of the highest in football, which is kind of one of the biggest determine factors here. And I do just wonder, is there an element as well of, look, Maurinio's obviously nowhere near has got a coach as Guardiola, and this is his own first season in the Champions League. But is there a little bit of an elements of what has happened before with previous kind of long-serving coaches who are kind of very influential, like Reenis Meekles and Iax in the 70s, even Richard Jolli's Saki in Milan when he left in 1991. Now, it's a bit of a stretch to say the Capello would allow a release. But just a different manager after so long under a quite intense figure, like Meekles like Saki, a switch to a different manager, something like a bit of a release which actually worked for them in Europe. I mean, it took me a lot under the three years to win it, but they always would afford a Europe's top team with our period. Iax immediately went in one two more, and that can occasionally happen. I think that's one kind of potential factor this season. I mean, you could say it could, but the other argument is that it's just such a different team that it's not the same players get to release. It's players who either came in this summer who only had six months or a year with Guardiola to begin with. Yeah, yeah, but also I can kind of factor the air around the team as well. We're kind of one of a few ways where it into the unknown here. In fact, I don't think like, I don't think it's that wide of field of potential champions, I'd say determined to my prove as wrong as it often does. But I think this feels among the smallest of potential winners in years, I would say. Yeah, I think you can often start off saying there's about eight potential winners, and this year I'd reduced it to five round Madrid Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Paris Saint-Germain and Arsenal. I wouldn't have Madrid in there, obviously. Well, I would probably have them in there more if they had a different manager. Yeah, yeah. But I do think with Real Madrid, maybe you're just banking on some institutional history of Real and think things like that and just say maybe they could win it on those grounds. No, no, no, no. They could play us. They could do a Madrid. But I think that's, look, for all we think about, they always do a Madrid. They've gone out early in the past two seasons. And look, I don't really know if the capacity is to surprise. I think if you're just, you're kind of judging it logically in kind of the makeup of the team, the manager. I think they look a fair bit off. The three or four that they would have above them. To win it, is it necessary a little bit like how Arterta won the Premier League where it's a gradually built and built and finished second, what three years in a row and then eventually got over the line? Do you think you kind of need to have either been in last year's final or semi-finals and had that little bit of battle hard and exposure to the sharp end of the Champions League in order to then get over the line and win it? Is it such a kind of psychological step? Like, can Real Madrid go from almost nowhere? And I know some of their players, I say nowhere, and it's not that long ago that they won it. But can they go from there to just jump up to the top of the tree and win it? Or is it or Arsenal, PSG and Bayern so sort of cemented at the top of the experiences they've had over the last couple of years that they will inevitably be in the final of the Champions League. I wouldn't say Raelic going from nowhere so much, but some of the others are. But if you look at the recent Champions, PSG was semi-finalist the year before in 2024, win it in 2025. Manchester City, under Gwideola was semi-finalist the year before they won it. Eugen Klopp's Liverpool were finalists the year before they won it. So that really counts against, I think that counts against Manchester City now actually because so many of the treble team had gone and then you've got a team that went out in the last 24 and the last 16. You know, Rael Madrid have got closer than them. You can look at this current Liverpool team and say last 16, last 8. They haven't been that close. The counter argument is they were unlucky to face PSG both times. But to me the two that then you could say possibly have that recent experience who if everything goes right Atlético got to the semi's last year and Inter whilst they did go to Bodo Glimp last year, they've been in two of the last four finals so they've got some of that core so does that position them to make a jump? But beyond that, I agree very much. You look at the ones who've been there which means Arsenal, which means PSG, which means Bayern. And doesn't mean too many others. I'd have Barcelona up there as well. And it's funny because the Champions League probably in this era needs a strong Barcelona because so much of it is dictated by financial power. And Barcelona. What are the amazing things? Champions League terms. They've been a bit of a basket case in the 11 years since they've last won it. Bar of that one season in 2019 where they look like they were going to win it and it ended up with kind of their most humiliating collapse of all the 4-0 at Anfield. They have been on an upward trajectory over the past few years. Obviously they've got potentially this year's Ballon d'Or winner in L'Aminio Mal. Maybe the best player in the world. Certainly one of the best talents. Flick has begun to impose an order. But obviously one of the lines has been actually about his highlight and how suddenly exposed Barcelona can be. Now I know that gets a bit of sometimes seeing discussion in Spanish media and it's a cliche to point to Flick's highlight. And then you watch one of the European games and they're repeatedly getting exposed there. But that is where the signing of Rudry is so transformative I think just because he's one of very few players in World Football that just like he can swallow up so much of that. Like if you're playing a highlight he's pretty much perfect. Even if he can only play fewer games the games they're going to really matter these big games in Europe. And that's where I think he can just solve so much for Barcelona and suddenly I would say lunch damn into potential winners again. So I'd go for those four. Yeah I mean I think those four are my semi-finelists and I've been trying to decide between Barcelona and PSG to win it partly because I've basically just tipped everyone who won something last year to win exactly the same thing this year. But with Miguel's point about Rudry I mean he in a way could be this year's Marquinius or this year's Usman de Belay in that he doesn't have to play every single other game in other competitions. But that added freshness in the Champions League and to have a in Rudry's case just such a big game player that could be decisive. Marquinius just makes me think of the new absurd UEFA award for what is it for sportsmanship which he won do you see this for embracing Gabrielle after the penalty you tell me that is really low-hanging fruit isn't it? It's you saw one of your very good friends for your international team have like one of the worst moments of the life you'd probably go over and say are you okay with it? No, no. Do you lose it? You remember? What a water. Game's gone. Right on that note we will take a break and when we come back we will discuss the impact of the Premier League's financial might and we will make our predictions of who might win the Champions League. So Miguel the story of the summer and maybe the past few summers really has been the Premier League's spending Ipswich spent more than the vast majority of the Champions League clubs just for one example and yet really as we've discussed there's probably only one Premier League team who genuinely looks like they might win the Champions League I mean maybe let's start there I mean why do we not feel that the Premier League has to be what not feel the Premier League can just sort of take over the Champions League and hasn't done that yet? I mean this has obviously been a theme for the past few years and one of them is actually the very wealth of the Premier League works against it in that it is more competitive than any other domestic league certainly for the Champions League level sides. I mean Barcelona around the funny like there's an interest story in Spain over the weekend you know Barcelona just cruise through Valencia 5-0 in a game it doesn't even really like I know it's only been 5 years since Manchester City went away to Villa and won like 6-1 or whatever but like the Premier League last season had fewer thrashings than ever before very very few like four goals or more he was only 8 by the end and that was obviously linked to the fact that there's just so much financial heft there like you can see in the signings the kind of mid-table team so it doesn't mean every week is more of a slog for the wealthiest English sides and it's funny that there are a lot of wider politics here because a lot of the big clubs in Europe are now obsessed with the power of the Premier League you know taking most of their players even if they can still buy the stars and the Super League was actually intended to be a bull work against us they didn't get that true now this is an alternative an often called an alternative super league I think there's also an element with the Premier League where it's now had so much money for so long that were pass a bit of a critical there's a bit of a critical mass of that money and that they spend so much that it doesn't have the same effect anymore and I think that can be seen and actually some of the prices this summer where it was basically just an internal Premier League market where prices going open up and up and not necessarily being linked to the quality of the player in the same way so it is just a different market to the rest of the game there is a Premier League premium and then also I think maybe even that very the very amount spent feeds into a turn I think we were discussing this on last week's podcast there's so much team building at the moment with it with a lot of the Premier League size in fact the only one you could say that is conform to traditional team building in that way are Arsenal who are like you know one of the contenders you could say maybe Manchester United except they're going about it by necessarily glacial pace because they're their own adaptation to financial rules and they're going to long over over spending so like they did the attack last year the midfield this year and the defence next year by which point they probably have to go and do the attack again you know so you're constantly you're saying Sena Lammons will retire and then have to buy a new goalkeeper area is it a team but like Liverpool as well I mean just this I mean Liverpool maybe it's a bit different because it feels like they've got half a team I think we possibly seen these kind of social media memes to kind of lay out where the best position of all their players and most of them right on the left wing or in defence with gaps all over and that's in a season where the goal at A already needs kind of essentially two first elevens to play his best football because it's so intense and B himself is enduring the Champions League for the first time but beyond that like city a kind of an example of what we're talking about in the Premier League and just like Rich has already mentioned it just this extreme turnover of players where I like spend, spend, spend but it's not necessarily the most efficient so I think there's a few reasons there but the biggest being actually that the Champions League group stage itself what the Champions League is is almost kind of an unintended or maybe partly intended correct of Premier League power It's quite interesting when you look at the Premier League's fortunes and the Champions League last year in that you've got these two contrasting top eights in the league slash group phase Premier League clubs got five of the top eight finishes and it was only Newcastle didn't and even then they weren't that far off but when it came to the actual proper top eight of the quarterfinals the Premier League clubs only had two of the top eight and only one of the last four and I guess there's two or three reasons for that Miguel has talked about the financial power of the Premier League but the actual other clubs who have the big turnovers are the ones who end up at the business stages you know Barcelona, Real Madrid buying me a Nick Paris and German Athletico you could say punched above their weight last year and there's always the chance someone will and they can pay as big salaries as the Premier League if not bigger Real Madrid's turnover is actually bigger than that of any Premier League club at all and then so then you say well maybe how do Premier League clubs get these top eight in the group phase and one of the and Tottenham finished fourth in a year that they finished fourth from bottom in the Premier League Tottenham did actually have quite a nice fixture list in the last year but Tottenham's resources are better than those of nearly everyone they faced in that Champions League group phase and so if they are beating teams who on average are coming about 18th or 20th in the group stage as they were it's a bit different to then getting to the knockout phases and can they be Athletico Madrid well no they couldn't Liverpool last year had this you know really a pretty bad season a lot of ways they lost 20 games in all competitions they had one absolutely shocking result in the Champions League group stage with the lost four one at home to PSV they also lost a way to Galatasaray but they won six other group stage games which was enough to come third in that phase then when they get to the actual quarterfinals they face PSG and get knocked out and get knocked out pretty convincingly so I think you've got these kind of two two tiers of Premier League involvement in the Champions League is this not also an issue of coaching though because in that period between the 20 what was it 2018 and 2023 when a when a Premier League team is in the final every year basically except for 2020 when it's by a mini versus PSG and you've got Guardiola Klopp too cool as Premier League managers and essentially Premier League has the best coaching in the world and now it feels like the Premier League does not and you've got Lewis and Rieke and Hansi Flick and okay we're not going to say Jose Mourinho in that category but the best managers in the world generally are spread around other than perhaps Artetta is in addition a vacuum of world class coaching which is the Premier League's Achilles heel and is perhaps holding it back from more domination in Europe as it had done sort of a decade ago I do think the dividing line is a change in format because I mean like the Premier League still certainly at the moment it's a point in all the promising coaches it's been a real brain drain there this has been linked to an era like when it came up say when the Liverpool job is available or whatever or even the city job although they were kind of always going from Moresca just to not suddenly as money like compared to 10 years ago you do a lot of money outstanding candidates like did like an absolute I think it's a bit more fluid and obviously Lewis and Rieke is in a position and then we even were Lewis and Rieke like I always think this is a bit of a like obviously he's brilliant and what Paris Saint-Germain do in terms of the way they play is actually quite distinctive leaving aside all the kind of wider discussions about the club and the ownership and all that but I think it's quite an interesting thought experiment to kind of imagine this Paris Saint-Germain squad just dropped into the Premier League because suddenly they wouldn't be able to go through the situation like they've had another slow start of the season as it is last year and the Premier League that's potentially immediately very very influential then you get into a situation where you can't do what they've done and kind of keep Crash Gellier or Dembele on the bench for like so many minutes of the season and then once you enter that situation and you get to February March, well you can kind of take off from the way they have been because the players just have extra fatigue there's so many more minutes on the clock and it's just such a completely different context to play in I mean that is one of the big things with the Premier League is can their teams peak in May and the answer is no basically firstly because you've got to peak before May to get to the Champions League final but secondly that cumulative fatigue and it actually caught up with Newcastle last year not that they were ever going to be Champions League winners but having that extra workload caught up with them and having that round of 24 round caught up with them even though they walloped Carabag away in the first game Eddie Howe picked what seemed a needlessly strong team for the second leg and I even then those extra minutes came at a cost Tottenham is maybe a slightly different matter in that they're the relegation back on their ego chewed they almost needed to be knocked out of Europe and if you look at the Premier League teams you've got to Champions League finals in recent years they are not in a condition to do what PSG did when they be into five Netherlands Champions League final you know were Manchester City won the final they were hanging on in the last 20 minutes when Liverpool reached the 2022 final yes Tibo Courtauer had a really good game for Real Madrid but that Liverpool team had peaked in April they were playing against the Champions League final to basically be at April and you can almost say the same with the Liverpool team in 2019 that team peaked when they beat Barcelona for Netherlands semifinal not when they beat Tottenham 2-0 in the final so that kind of count all counts against the Premier League teams at the real business end of the season Even Arsenal last season for all the kind of debate about the contrast and approach although I didn't actually think until the penalty was a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit a little bit but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see but it's hard to see