🎙️ The Athletic FC Podcast •September 20, 2026 •⏱️ 49 min

What If... the Super League had happened?

🎧 Listen to Original Episode →

1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

The ill-fated launch and instantaneous collapse of the European Super League (ESL) in April 2021 remains the most defining structural inflection point in modern sports business. What was initially framed by its architects as an inevitable modernization of European football instead triggered an unprecedented counter-revolution across political, regulatory, and supporter ecosystems. In a retrospective masterclass episode of The Athletic FC Podcast titled "What If... the Super League had happened?", host Emma Payton, alongside senior sports news reporter Matt Slater and football writer Dan Kilpatrick, conducted a rigorous counterfactual interrogation of this watershed moment. Far from treating the breakaway attempt as a dead historical artifact, the panel dissected the structural mechanisms of the proposed league, revealing that the systemic pressures that birthed the ESL have not vanished—they have merely mutated.

The central thesis established during the discussion is that the European Super League was neither a spontaneous act of corporate hubris nor an isolated tactical blunder. Rather, it was a carefully calculated attempt by an elite oligopoly of twelve clubs—spanning England's "Big Six," Spain's top three, and Italy's traditional powers—to construct a closed-shop financial cartel. Underwritten by Wall Street investment banking titan JP Morgan with a $3.5 billion upfront infrastructure grant, the proposal aimed to insulate legacy European titans from the existential hazards of sporting performance, relegation, and volatile broadcast rights markets. As Matt Slater noted during the discussion, the project was fundamentally designed to reset the economic baseline of European sport, guaranteeing annual revenues in the realm of $400 million per club—roughly triple the maximum yield achievable from a triumph in the UEFA Champions League at the time.

Furthermore, the podcast conversation highlighted several vital revelations that alter the mainstream narrative surrounding the breakaway:

  • The Wage-Depression Cartel: Beyond guaranteed broadcast revenues, the inner charter of the ESL included explicit non-poaching agreements and strict spending caps designed to curb player wage inflation and suppress transfer fees—importing North American franchise cartel dynamics directly into European football.
  • The Asymmetric Motives of Non-Signatories: The refusal of Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, and Paris Saint-Germain to sign the original agreement stemmed from fundamentally different structural constraints. German clubs were bound by the democratic veto of the 50+1 ownership model, whereas PSG’s leadership navigated a complex web of geopolitical stakes, including BeIN Media Group's lucrative broadcast commitments with UEFA and Qatar’s upcoming 2022 FIFA World Cup.
  • The Paradox of the De Facto Super League: The defeat of the ESL did not preserve European competitive balance. Instead, the domestic growth of the English Premier League has effectively established an alternative Super League on British soil, driving financial polarization that leaves continental giants like Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, and Juventus permanently disadvantaged in the transfer market.
  • The Reform Irony: UEFA's defensive pivot—implementing an expanded, 36-team "Swiss-model" Champions League—has satisfied big-club demands for more guaranteed fixtures, but at the cost of creating a diluted, overly complex league phase that Dan Kilpatrick characterized as suffering from a severe "jeopardy deficit."

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully understand the analytical weight of the podcast’s counterfactual inquiry, one must re-examine the volatile environment of April 2021. European football was reeling from the economic devastation of the COVID-19 pandemic. Empty stadiums, breached broadcast contracts, and deferred commercial sponsorships created liquidity crises across the continent. For clubs already carrying unsustainable wage-to-turnover ratios and mounting debt loads, the pandemic acted as an accelerator of existing structural distress. It was against this backdrop of fiscal panic that twelve clubs—Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City, Tottenham Hotspur, Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Juventus, AC Milan, and Inter Milan—announced their intention to form a midweek breakaway league starting in August 2021.

The proposed structure was unapologetically Americanized. Fifteen permanent "founding members" would enjoy immunity from relegation, joined annually by five qualifying clubs. The competition schedule guaranteed a minimum of 18 midweek matches per club across two groups of ten, culminating in a multi-stage knockout tournament. The participating clubs insisted they would remain in their domestic leagues, effectively converting UEFA's flagship Champions League into a redundant shell. However, the political and social response was swift, ferocious, and total.

Within 48 hours, the project unravelled under the combined pressure of mass fan demonstrations outside stadiums, explicit threats of legislative retaliation from British Prime Minister Boris Johnson (who threatened a "legislative bomb" involving visa restrictions and stadium policing costs), and fierce condemnation from UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin. The institutional fury was personal as well as structural; Čeferin openly labeled the ringleaders "snakes and liars," reserving particular venom for Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli, who had resigned from the European Club Association (ECA) overnight despite serving as godfather to Čeferin’s daughter. By midweek, the English clubs initiated a panicked retreat, led by Chelsea and Manchester City, culminating in public apologies from club owners such as Liverpool's John W. Henry.

Yet, as the podcast panel emphasized, the collapse of the initial blueprint did not resolve the underlying structural crisis. The core economic drivers—escalating player wages, unpredictable European qualification, and the relentless financial dominance of the Premier League—remained completely intact. Consequently, evaluating the hypothetical timeline where the Super League succeeded offers indispensable insights into the past, present, and future direction of the global football industry.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1 Cartel Engineering: Salary Caps, Non-Poaching Pacts, and Wall Street Underwriting

The financial architecture of the European Super League represents a radical departure from the open-pyramid economic model that has governed European sport for over a century. The structural core of the project relied on a $3.5 billion infrastructure and commitment grant provided by JP Morgan Chase. This capital injection was intended to serve as an immediate balance-sheet buffer, allowing founding clubs to write off pandemic-induced losses and refinance long-term stadium and player acquisition debts.

However, as Matt Slater underscored during the podcast breakdown, the true financial ambition extended far beyond an initial cash injection. The business plan hinged on projected seasonal distributions of $400 million per club—a figure that dwarfed UEFA's maximum payouts. Under the pre-2024 Champions League distribution model, winning the competition yielded approximately $130 million to $140 million (£100 million). The Super League guaranteed nearly triple that baseline amount simply for participating in the group phase, regardless of pitch performance.

"The speculation was they were all thinking in terms of 400 million dollars a year, which was about three times what a run to the final of the Champions League was worth at that time."
— Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Reporter

Significantly, the ESL agreement contained systemic regulatory mechanisms designed to alter labor dynamics. Standard European football economics operates under open-market conditions: clubs bid competitively for talent, driving transfer fees and player salaries upward in a perpetual arms race. The Super League charter attempted to dismantle this dynamic by embedding explicit non-poaching clauses and spending limits among member clubs.

"Within the ESL agreement, there was a rule that they weren't going to poach from each other. That sounds a lot like proper cartel-type behavior—trying to depress wages and transfer fees."
— Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Reporter

This non-poaching agreement mirrors the cost-containment strategies employed by North American closed-franchise leagues such as the National Football League (NFL) and National Basketball Association (NBA). By agreeing not to raid rival rosters or outbid fellow cartel members for contracted talent, the ESL founders sought to cap player wage expenditure, eliminate third-party agency leverage, and retain a significantly higher proportion of gross revenues as net profit for ownership. It was an intentional attempt to replace open-market risk with artificial corporate stability.

3.2 The Non-Signatories: German 50+1 Governance and Qatar's Geopolitical Balancing Act

A key analytical vector explored by Payton, Slater, and Kilpatrick is why three of Europe's undisputed super-clubs—Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, and Paris Saint-Germain—refused to sign the founding charter. Had all three joined, the ESL would have achieved an insurmountable monopoly over elite European football talent and television markets. Their absence created immediate structural vulnerabilities that accelerated the project's collapse.

The refusal of Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund highlighted the structural power of German football governance. Under the 50+1 rule enforced by the Deutsche Fußball Liga (DFL), club members retain a minimum 51% majority of voting rights, preventing private investors or corporate entities from seizing unilateral operational control. The executive boards of Bayern and Dortmund recognized that participating in a closed breakaway league would provoke a catastrophic democratic revolt among their voting membership.

Furthermore, German football culture prioritizes affordable matchday ticket pricing, fan advisory representation, and domestic competitive integrity. As Slater pointed out, the German leadership possessed superior political instincts, recognizing that joining the breakaway would be viewed domestically as an unforgivable betrayal of supporters. Their institutional framework functioned exactly as intended: as a democratic circuit breaker against unrestrained commercial speculation.

In contrast, Paris Saint-Germain's decision was governed by geopolitical and commercial alignment. PSG’s president, Nasser Al-Khelaifi, occupied a unique position at the intersection of global sport, media, and state diplomacy:

Entity / Stakeholder Primary Interest & Institutional Conflict Strategic Decision Driver
Paris Saint-Germain (Club) Maximizing global prestige, squad valuation, and European trophy contention. High incentive to join elite breakaway, but constrained by broader state-level allegiances.
BeIN Media Group Holding multi-billion-dollar broadcast rights for the UEFA Champions League across MENA and Asia. Joining ESL would instantly destroy the value of BeIN's existing UEFA broadcast portfolio.
Qatari State / 2022 FIFA World Cup Maintaining geopolitical harmony with FIFA and UEFA ahead of the November 2022 World Cup. Avoided alienating UEFA and FIFA leadership during the critical runway to host the tournament.
European Club Association (ECA) Positioning Al-Khelaifi as a loyal defender of European sports governance against rebel clubs. Al-Khelaifi replaced Andrea Agnelli as ECA Chairman, consolidating immense political leverage.

Al-Khelaifi’s refusal to betray UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin provided the European governing body with a key continental ally. It ensured that the ESL could not claim complete coverage of the French broadcast market or access the star power of Kylian Mbappé and Neymar Jr., who were then under contract at PSG. The non-participation of Bayern, Dortmund, and PSG severed the ESL’s claim to absolute European exclusivity before the first ball was kicked.

3.3 The De Facto Super League: Premier League Hegemony and Continental Stagnation

One of the most compelling insights generated during the podcast conversation was Dan Kilpatrick's assessment of the modern football landscape: in rejecting the European Super League, the sport did not prevent hyper-inequality—it merely localized it within the English Premier League.

The exponential growth of the Premier League's international broadcast rights has created a financial chasm between English clubs and their continental counterparts. Middle-tier English clubs—such as West Ham United, Aston Villa, and Newcastle United—regularly generate higher annual revenues and post larger net transfer spends than historic European powerhouses like AC Milan, Inter Milan, Benfica, or Ajax. Premier League teams routinely raid continental leagues for elite managers, scouting directors, and prime player talent, reducing Europe’s traditional domestic leagues to functional developmental hubs.

As Matt Slater observed, this disparity was the primary catalyst for Andrea Agnelli, Florentino Pérez, and Joan Laporta’s obsession with the ESL. The leadership of Juventus, Real Madrid, and FC Barcelona recognized that without a structural intervention, the Premier League would establish an unassailable monopoly over global viewing attention and commercial capital. Their push for the Super League was a desperate defensive maneuver designed to neutralize England’s media revenue dominance.

Had the ESL succeeded, it would have fundamentally inverted this dynamic. By guaranteeing $400 million annually to its twelve founders, it would have severed the English Big Six from their reliance on domestic Premier League distributions, rendering the English top flight subordinate to the midweek cartel. In the actual timeline, however, the collapse of the ESL accelerated the Premier League’s hegemony, leaving La Liga, Serie A, and Ligue 1 trapped in a perpetual cycle of financial catch-up.

3.4 Governance, Legality, and the ECJ Watershed: Anti-Competitive Monopolies vs. Open Competition

The narrative of the European Super League is inextricably bound to international sports law. Following the initial retreat of the English clubs, the core promoters—led by Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Juventus, and the sports management agency A22 Sports Management—refused to abandon the concept. Instead, they mounted a landmark legal challenge against UEFA and FIFA in the European Court of Justice (ECJ).

The resulting ECJ ruling delivered a nuanced legal precedent that redefined the limits of sports governance under European Union competition law. The court established two vital legal principles:

  1. UEFA's Unlawful Monopoly: The ECJ ruled that UEFA and FIFA had abused their dominant market position by subjecting any prospective rival competition to arbitrary, pre-emptive authorization rules. The threat to ban clubs and players from international competitions (such as the FIFA World Cup and UEFA European Championship) without clear, transparent, and non-discriminatory criteria was declared illegal under EU antitrust laws.
  2. Rejection of Closed Leagues: Simultaneously, the court affirmed that sporting competitions in Europe must align with the fundamental tenets of the European Sports Model—specifically meritocratic qualification, open access, and solidarity distributions to grassroots levels.

This legal outcome forced A22 Sports Management to overhaul their proposals. The revised iteration—rebranded as the "Unify League"—abandoned the permanent founder model in favor of a multi-tiered, open system comprising 64 men’s clubs across Star, Gold, and Blue leagues, featuring promotion and relegation. To appeal to global consumers, promoter Bernd Reichart proposed streaming all matches for free via a direct-to-consumer digital platform named Unify.

"The guys behind the European Super League didn't really disband. They've continued to kick out ideas. The most recent iteration was this thing called the 'Unify League' where they thought they could give it away for free."
— Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Reporter

Despite this legal victory and structural rebranding, the Unify League has struggled to recruit European clubs, who remain wary of supporter backlash and institutional sanctions from their domestic leagues. Nevertheless, the ECJ ruling permanently stripped UEFA of its unchecked regulatory power, ensuring that rival event organizers can legally design and propose alternative European tournaments.

3.5 Cultural Schism: Traditional European Localism vs. Global & North American Market Preferences

The podcast debate exposed a profound cultural fault line dividing traditional European matchday supporters from global digital consumers. In Western Europe, football clubs function as sacred community institutions embedded within local working-class history, regional identity, and matchday rituals. The prospect of abolishing promotion and relegation was viewed by domestic fans not as a business optimization, but as an existential desecration of sporting integrity.

However, Matt Slater offered a primary counter-perspective by examining global reader engagement and international market data. Outside the traditional European heartlands—particularly across North America, East Asia, and the Middle East—consumer attitudes toward the Super League were far less hostile, and in many instances, overtly enthusiastic.

"It is worth looking in the comments. What we think is absolutely normal and natural is not necessarily what many North American or younger readers think. A lot of our listeners don't mind this idea; they think it sounds great."
— Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Reporter

For younger, digitally native audiences and international fans accustomed to the franchise structures of the NBA or NFL, the European pyramid model can appear needlessly convoluted. Global demographics frequently follow individual superstar players—such as Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, or Erling Haaland—rather than geographical clubs. To these markets, a weekly schedule featuring Real Madrid vs. Manchester City, FC Barcelona vs. Liverpool, and Juventus vs. Chelsea represents maximum entertainment value, eliminating the low-profile domestic fixtures that dominate traditional league calendars.

This demographic divide presents a strategic dilemma for sports executives. Domestic matchday fans generate atmosphere, heritage, and local brand authenticity. Global digital consumers, however, drive the international broadcast rights, video game licensing, and sponsorship revenues that fund elite squad construction. The ESL was explicitly engineered to monetize the global digital consumer, even if it meant alienating traditional local supporters.

3.6 Counterfactual Realities: Phoenix Clubs, Player Dilemmas, and Domestic Rupture

In exploring the counterfactual timeline where the ESL launched in August 2021, Dan Kilpatrick painted a vivid picture of the domestic devastation that would have followed in England. Had the Premier League carried out its threat to expel the Big Six, the English football pyramid would have fractured instantly.

Kilpatrick posited that the intense supporter fury in England would have triggered a grassroots schism, leading to the rapid creation of supporter-owned "phoenix clubs" modeled after AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester:

"I think we probably would have seen six Phoenix clubs spring up like AFC Tottenham or AFC Liverpool because there was so much fury. These six clubs would have been pariahs, public enemies for the rest of the game in this country."
— Dan Kilpatrick, Football Writer

These breakaway clubs would have drawn thousands of season-ticket holders away from the corporate ESL franchises, creating a parallel supporter culture built on community ownership and traditional values. Meanwhile, the original Big Six would have faced permanent domestic exile, operating as detached, traveling entertainment circuses catering primarily to tourist crowds and international broadcast feeds.

Simultaneously, top players would have faced agonizing career choices. Had FIFA and UEFA enforced their planned bans prohibiting ESL players from participating in international tournaments, elite players would have been forced to choose between maximum club compensation and international prestige. Kilpatrick highlighted the hypothetical dilemma for England captain Harry Kane (then at Tottenham Hotspur): remaining with his boyhood club to earn astronomical ESL salaries, or transferring to an un-sanctioned club (such as Bayern Munich or an expelled domestic team) to preserve his eligibility to captain England at the FIFA World Cup and UEFA European Championship.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The dialogue between Emma Payton, Matt Slater, and Dan Kilpatrick presented a rich spectrum of analytical viewpoints, balancing institutional sports business analysis with ground-level supporter perspective. The following matrix illustrates the core analytical stances and thematic focal points of each contributor:

Speaker Primary Analytical Lens Core Arguments & Diagnostic Focus Tone & Strategic Stance
Emma Payton
Host & Facilitator
Macro-level counterfactual framing & historical narrative continuity. Focuses on sliding-doors milestones; draws structural parallels between the 2021 ESL plot and FIFA’s modern attempts to commercialize international tournaments. Inquisitive, objective, structured; keeps focus on long-term industry consequences.
Matt Slater
Senior Sports News Reporter
Institutional economics, legal jurisprudence, corporate governance, & global media markets. Analyzes JP Morgan's balance sheet underwriting, cartel cost-containment mechanisms, ECJ antitrust rulings, Qatari geopolitical strategy, and the global consumer opinion split. Pragmatic, forensic, unsentimental; emphasizes financial realities over romantic sporting sentiment.
Dan Kilpatrick
Senior Football Writer
Supporter identity, matchday culture, domestic league integrity, & spectator fatigue. Highlights the threat of supporter-owned phoenix clubs, the loss of sporting jeopardy in expanded tournament formats, and the lived reality of covering club turmoil on the ground. Critical, fan-centric, grounded in domestic matchday realism; skeptical of artificial elite fixtures.

The primary area of friction between the panelists emerged in their evaluation of global entertainment vs. local sporting tradition. While Kilpatrick emphasized that repetitive elite fixtures would quickly become tedious and soul-less for traditional supporters, Slater countered by pointing out that corporate decision-makers are increasingly focused on international growth markets where the ESL model is viewed not as a threat, but as an upgrade over routine domestic games.

Furthermore, both panelists agreed on a central paradox: while the European Super League failed as a distinct corporate launch, its architects successfully coerced UEFA into adopting its core economic principles. As Slater succinctly observed:

"The European Super League has always been used as an idea by the big clubs to bully and scare UEFA into giving them what they want: more guaranteed games and more money."
— Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Reporter

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

The legacy of the European Super League project is fully visible across the modern sports business ecosystem. Rather than ending the push for elite revenue consolidation, the 2021 crisis accelerated a wave of structural redesigns across European football and international sport.

The most immediate byproduct of the ESL crisis is UEFA’s revamped Champions League format, introduced for the 2024–25 season. Replacing the traditional four-team group stage with a 36-team single league phase (the "Swiss Model"), the expanded tournament guarantees each club eight matches against eight different opponents. This expansion directly addresses the big clubs' demand for increased guaranteed inventory and higher matchday revenues.

However, as Dan Kilpatrick argued during the podcast, this compromise has severely damaged the viewing experience by stripping the competition of meaningful stakes during the initial phase:

"I'm already really bored of the new Champions League. The lack of jeopardy in the league phase is so dull, and even the jeopardy that is supposed to be there doesn't really excite me because it's too complicated."
— Dan Kilpatrick, Football Writer

The inflation of match inventory has created a bloated calendar where top-tier clubs can suffer multiple defeats in the league phase without facing elimination. The resulting absence of immediate jeopardy diminishes dramatic tension, inducing viewer fatigue while placing severe physical strains on elite players—a dynamic that has triggered formal legal complaints against FIFA and UEFA by FIFPRO (the global players' union) and domestic league associations.

Beyond UEFA competitions, the ESL blueprint has catalyzed capital disruption across global sports properties:

  • FIFA Club World Cup Expansion: FIFA's launch of a 32-team quadrennial Club World Cup represents a direct attempt by football's global governing body to capture a larger share of club-level broadcast and sponsorship revenue, mirroring the commercial goals of the ESL.
  • Private Equity Penetration: Sovereign wealth funds and American private equity firms (such as CVC Capital Partners and Sixth Street) have acquired structural stakes in La Liga, Ligue 1, and individual top-flight clubs, monetizing stadium operations and international media rights.
  • Cross-Sport Disruption: The cartel mechanics pioneered in the ESL have found parallels in golf (LIV Golf's disruption of the PGA Tour) and European basketball (the continued growth of the private EuroLeague), proving that private capital will consistently target legacy sports monopolies lacking structural protection.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As European football navigates an era defined by fiscal disparity, legal challenges, and shifting media consumption habits, the structural conflict between traditional governance models and private capital remains unresolved. The podcast discussion highlights several key metrics and regulatory milestones that will dictate the future landscape of global sport:

  1. The Limits of Broadcast Valuation: With domestic television rights in Europe approaching saturation points, rightsholders are testing the limits of international streaming platforms (such as Amazon Prime, Apple TV, and DAZN). Whether the market can absorb the financial demands of expanding UEFA and FIFA tournaments remains a central economic variable.
  2. Regulatory Oversight and the UK Independent Football Regulator: In response to the ESL crisis, the British government introduced the Football Governance Bill, establishing an Independent Football Regulator (IFR) tasked with enforcing financial sustainability, preventing breakaway attempts, and granting supporters veto power over club heritage decisions. The operational effectiveness of this regulator will serve as a global test case for state intervention in professional sports leagues.
  3. Player Labor Mobilization: As fixture congestion accelerates due to expanded European and international formats, player unions are increasingly willing to explore industrial action, including potential strikes. The intersection of player welfare, squad rotation depth, and legal labor caps will dictate the viability of future calendar expansions.
  4. The Future of A22 and the Unify Platform: While A22 Sports Management continues to advocate for an open, free-to-stream European competition, their success hinges on securing commitments from major clubs currently bound by ECA agreements. Should traditional European powerhouses experience prolonged financial distress under Premier League dominance, the temptation to revisit alternative tournament structures will re-emerge.

In summary, the 2021 European Super League was not an isolated historical aberration, but an aggressive opening salvo in an ongoing battle over the capital, governance, and soul of global football. As The Athletic FC Podcast masterfully demonstrated, examining what might have been provides the exact diagnostic toolkit required to understand what is to come.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

Champions League format

"I'm already really bored of the new Champions League. The lack of jeopardy in the league phase is so dull, and even the jeopardy that is supposed to be there doesn't really excite me because it's too complicated."

— Dan Kilpatrick

European Super League regulations

"Within the ESL agreement, there was a rule that they weren't going to poach from each other. That sounds a lot like proper cartel-type behavior—trying to depress wages and transfer fees."

— Matt Slater

European Super League finances

"The speculation was they were all thinking in terms of 400 million dollars a year, which was about three times what a run to the final of the Champions League was worth at that time."

— Matt Slater

European Super League future

"The guys behind the European Super League didn't really disband. They've continued to kick out ideas. The most recent iteration was this thing called the 'Unify League' where they thought they could give it away for free."

— Matt Slater

European Super League history

"The idea was 15 founding members. The 12 that did sign up were our big six—Liverpool, Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea, Man City, and Tottenham—as well as the big three from Spain and three from Serie A."

— Matt Slater

European Super League strategy

"The European Super League has always been used as an idea by the big clubs to bully and scare UEFA into giving them what they want: more guaranteed games and more money."

— Matt Slater

European Super League fan reaction

"I think we probably would have seen six Phoenix clubs spring up like AFC Tottenham or AFC Liverpool because there was so much fury. These six clubs would have been pariahs, public enemies for the rest of the game in this country."

— Dan Kilpatrick

Global football perception

"It is worth looking in the comments. What we think is absolutely normal and natural is not necessarily what many North American or younger readers think. A lot of our listeners don't mind this idea; they think it sounds great."

— Matt Slater

European Super League opposition

"Bayern and Borussia Dortmund were smarter than our big six and just knew this would go down like a bucket of sick back home, so they didn't bother."

— Matt Slater

European Super League fallout

"I remember the slightly strange spectacle of Ryan Mason previewing Tottenham's League Cup Final in 2021 and just all the questions being about the European Super League. He couldn't answer any of them."

— Dan Kilpatrick
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 50,885 characters
Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. This is Water, where we discuss the biggest sliding doors moments in football and look at how different life might be on an alternative timeline. This week we're asking, what if the European super league never fails? Well with me in the studio today is the Athletics Dan Kilpatrick. Hello. Hello and we've also got our senior sports news reporter down the line in Matt Slater. Hello. Hello. Hello. I mean you've you made your debut last week so you kind of know what to expect this time around, right? I did, yeah, yeah. This feels like relevant to me because I think the the FIFA plan to sell off the World Cup which has been the biggest newsy thing of the last few months feels like it has so many parallels with the super league Fabia. Even right down to some of the people involved which maybe Matt can get into shortly. So yeah, this feels like a very good time to do this counterfactual. Yeah. Also far in this series we have looked at a multiverse where Pep Guardiola never joins Barcelona, Roman Abramovich by Spurs instead of Chelsea and Wayne Rooney joins Manchester City. But here are the three major alternative timeline moments we'll be focusing on this week centered around the European super league which first came up in 2021. Would it have worked if it went ahead? What would have happened to domestic competitions and international football? And frankly, would we be watching football anymore if it did happen? And some Matt, let's let's start with a bit of a history lesson then which is what we tend to do on this podcast. Of course April 2021 this is when it all kicked off a breakaway group of 12 teams threatened to rip up European football before the project ultimately collapsed pretty quickly actually in the space of just two days. You were very much across this story at the time so remind us I guess who signed up for it and and how it was all going to work. I'm going to take everyone back to the pandemic those salad days you know happy memories right? So April 2021. Yeah exactly. And look the pandemic is part of this story very much so like the clubs were reacting to you know all the misery around and all the losses that the financial losses so you know this didn't come out of nowhere. But anyway the idea yet it was going to be 15 founding members permanent members. Three of them didn't sign up. We'll mention those a bit more in a mo but the 12 that did the the devious dozen or the dirty dozen were our big six so Liverpool Arsenal match united those three were very much involved Chelsea Man City and Tottenham as well as the big three from Spain so Barça, Real and Atlético and then three from Syria so Yves and the two Milan clubs they see an answer. And the idea was they were going to be there was going to be a midweek league. Starting in August 2021 so with if this had happened we'd be we'd be sort of talking about the sixth season of this and the idea was they were going to assistance the two groups of ten they played each other home and away so a guaranteed 18 midweek games and then the top three from each of those two halves would go into a quarter final the teams that came fourth and fifth in those two halves would play off to join them in the quarters and then two leg quarters two leg semis and a final so a maximum of 23 games here's what they weren't going to do they were saying they weren't going to leave their domestic leagues so they were going to carry on playing at home but they were quitting your wafer they were leaving your wafer's composition so this was instead of the Champions League or whatever it was they were going to be in so that's the sort of you know that's it that's that's kind of the big announcement they promised a hell of a lot of money so the the 15 we're going to share I think it was something like 3.5 billion and that was very much kind of right now for signing up and that was to sort of cover pandemic loss right so that again you know the pandemic was important they never really got into how much they never sort of set out loud anyway how much they thought it was going to be worth per season but you know the talk the you know the speculation the rumor well informed speculation was they were all thinking in terms of 400 million a year which at the time was 400 million dollars a year I should say so that was about three times what a run so the final of the Champions League was worth at that time so like tripling tripling the best possible run they could have in a Champions League so you could already see you know the kind of you know why it was all going to be underwritten by JP Morgan and Dan's absolutely right there are there are parallels with the most recent FIFA forward enterprise plan because JP Morgan you know the you know every disrupt a league's favorite bank we're all over this one a lot of speculation about where the money was really from was it Saudi money blah blah blah also kinds of speculation around where the FIFA were really for it where the Johnny Fantino had been tipped off anyway everyone remembers the reaction it all blew up in about 48 hours English fans voted with their feet very much though they were protests and that absolutely killed this I would I would argue political pressure as well Boris Johnson the Prime Minister sort of talks about putting a legislative bomb under this plan politicians around Europe you wafer obviously you know just just reacted with absolute fury this was sort of Alexander Sefferen's calling them snakes and you know he used to be a criminal lawyer in Slovenia and said that he'd never met anyone as bad as this lot so there was just just it was an amazing story and look we almost didn't get a chance to speculate then because it blew up so quickly but anyway we've got loads of time now yes we're speculating now I want to come back to the reaction in just a moment but you said about there originally being 15 founding clubs but but three didn't sign the agreement tell us tell us about those three and ultimately why they didn't I guess well so the three that didn't so they wanted a spread that you know you can you can look at kind of you it was the aristocrats of Europe right so they wanted PSG from France and they wanted the two big German clubs they wanted Bianne and Brissier Dortmund now let's do the last two first because I think they're the easiest the reaction I think Bianne and Brissier Dortmund were Qso was smarter than our big six and just knew this would go down like a bucket of sick back home so they didn't bother and if you think about kind of the 50 what plus one rule and the fact that you know kind of fans are so much more enswined and entrenched in terms of decision making of the big German clubs there was no way they were going to sort of get this past their fans certainly not I think well we're going to get into some speculation aren't we you know you know might they have joined later I think that's that's a you know dot dot dot you know so that's a good interesting one but they certainly couldn't be sort of seen in that first wave so they said no PSG is really interesting so PSG of course are owned by Qatar and the main man at PSG is Nasser Al Khalifa who has since become one of the most important people in global football he also runs Bianne sport media which is the biggest sports broadcaster in the Gulf North Africa you know huge play and one of you wafer's biggest customers by the way so he had as ever he was he was straddling about three tigers there was sort of like the interests of PSG you could definitely see they might they might want to be part of this but also the interests of Bianne well hold on we'd be trashing the Champions League and that's one of our most valuable contracts also the fact that he is a very significant person in Qatar Qatar were about to be staging the 2022 World Cup they didn't really want any aggro and disruption you wafer and FIFA were threatening boycotts were threatening sorry bands you know anyone involved in this would not be able to play in the competition so I think he kind of very quickly scans the room and thought I'm starting out of this one I think also to be fair lots of people that know him and we're talking for him I've always said he's kind of loyal guy and you know I don't know how much people want to sort of take them at their word on this one but it was certainly one that was put around very widely at the time that NASA did not want to stab you wafer and you wafer's boss Nasser al-Khalif so that excited Sephirine in the back unlike the UVA guy Andrea Agnelli who was running the European Club Association at the time and was the ringleader and absolutely you know took an axe to Sephirine's back despite Sephirine being the the Godfather of one of his daughters and this has become one of the great few so sort of kind of modern football so you know there's lots of reasons why Nasser al-Khalif you didn't do it loyal C might be one of them I think I would argue that the sort of the the being contract with the wafer and the fact that Qatar were going to stage a World Cup that this would definitely have put another cloud over that were the bigger factors yeah and Matt obviously touched before on on the reaction you know whether that was from football governing bodies from parliament even what's your memory of that at the time I mean my main memory of the reaction is just how kind of one sided and overwhelming it was I think normally when there's a big kind of debate in football there's at least someone speaking on you know the the other side of it and with with the the FIFA comparison we had you know infantino is this very kind of public figure and very well known figure and perhaps the the biggest personality or one of the biggest personalities in football governance at the moment to kind of speaking for it was in this super league happened and Matt mentioned Perez and and yearly but at least in this country my recollection of it was there was just no one to actually defend it it was like overwhelming amount of people coming out you know clubs players organizations fans just saying we're totally against this and you know I remember listening to Radio in the kitchen and it was all they were talking about and you know on TV on Twitter wherever you look this was the talking point but there was no one actually defending it whatsoever so given that I mean perhaps it was different in Spain and perhaps Perez was doing interviews and then defending I don't know but in this country certainly that there was no one speaking for it and and given that it was kind of unsurprising given the kind of weight of opposition that did it collapse so quickly I remember I think Prince William coming out Boris Johnson I mean it wasn't one of those topics that completely kind of transcended just people in football talking about it was like government royalty everyone was against this so yeah it's fair to say it was it was a massive reaction everyone was against it it felt like everyone was talking about it as well didn't it and we were talking off camera and you were saying you were working well covering spurs at the time and you had a crazy few days yeah so I mean I was chief football reporter for the stand of the time but Mike that I kind of assigned London club was taught them and two days before this happened they're just sacmarineo and about four days after it happened they had a cup final against Manchester City so I remember coming in sort of sitting down my desk and Monday morning and just think I think God I've not quite sure where to start and I do remember the slightly strange spectacle of Ryan Mason previewing Tottenham's League Cup Final 2021 and just all the questions being about the European Super League and of course Paul Ryan Mason couldn't answer any of these questions and it just kind of actually a kind of good example of the absurdity one of my big bug bears and football of executives and owners and indeed sporting directors in this country never talking about never talking to the media and never being accountable to fans and that was kind of the ultimate example this this caretaker manager who presumably knew absolutely nothing about the club's decision to join the European Super League trying to preview a cup final that he hadn't prepared for until a couple of days before and having to face all these questions so yeah I think for everyone and particularly people doing the kind of business element like Matt it was a crazy week. Yeah crazy week for you crazy week for Ryan Mason crazy week for not people. Matt you talked about this a little bit on I think it was last week's show when you with with K and Rob Green and Adam Kraft and talked to us about how you feel maybe this new Champions League format is almost ended up becoming a sort of light version of the European Super League. Well I mean this is this is sort of one of the so many fascinating parts of this story so when it broke or as it was kind of breaking I actually had heard whispers of it and I made a fatal professional mistake in dismissing them because I'd heard them so many times before I'd read about them so many times before the idea of a European Super League goes back ages you know it goes back to the 60s you can find it sort of written about you know it's the same idea right that these big clubs want to play each other more regularly that's what we want that's what punters want we want to see the you know we want to see the best sprinters race against the best sprinters the best fighters but you know the best that's what we want right that's what really gets people going and how can you manufacture that so you know you better at the time in the 60s 70s 80s whatever they had the European Cup but back then champions could be drawn against each other in the first round there was no protection there was no seeding and there were some quite famous examples of you know first round knockouts where nothing of forest beat Liverpool I think it was Barcelona beat Napoli and that's it you know what one of your big guns one of the champions is gone and it was a knockout it was loads of jeopardy so Super League has always been used as an idea by the big clubs to kind of bully and scare your way for into giving them what they want we want more guaranteed games we'd like a bigger say in them and we want more money and if you sort of think about how the Champions League develops you know over the years got bigger more and more non champions that's the story that that is the story of kind of European club football it's the story of European football aristocracy and that's what I thought this was as well because at the same time this is why you know Sephirine's response was so furious he had been talking to the big clubs via this thing called the European club association which is now called European football clubs and it's all a bit complicated but these these these these bodies are kind of important so the big clubs gang and UEFA have been negotiating for a while about okay what where are we going you know the Champions League's been like this for a sort of decade or so we've got group stages the TV figures were falling you know the pandemic had caused a panic we need to shake things up and the answering football is nearly always more isn't it we'll do more shall we we'll sell more so they had this idea they they had various versions of it and basically what what we've got now was the plan and they were going to announce it almost the sort of the same time it was going to be this 36 teams Swiss model which you know you know I think we've all got heads around that they were going to have 10 games not the eight that they've settled on but that was up from six group stage games so and then you know at the same time and yelling was having these private conversations with Real and Liverpool the Glazers John W. Henry at FSG let's you know what let's do let's do let's really go for it let's let's actually just do our thing because I think the thing that I perhaps didn't stress enough of my first answer is this was going to be a close league this was going to be the NFL of Europe those those those permanent members were permanent they were founding members they were getting the biggest slice of the money it was a 23 year plan like the hubris is unbelievable it lasted 48 hours they were talking about this being a 23 year commitment they didn't have a TV contract I mean it was just unbelievable it was some of it is just like hilarious to think about now but that is why it exercised people that is why it got the king or the future king that is why it got the prime minister that's why I got everyone talking about that's why I got people out in the streets particularly here in this country it was this idea of a closed league it goes against everything you know 100 plus years of kind of football history so anyway that that's the fury and what if we ended up with what if we ended up with we've ended up with the same teams getting to play each other a lot right that was the conversation we're having last week we've now watched three versions or this is going to be our third version of the Swiss league we all had to have real and Liverpool artificially separated because they've been drawn against each other twice before instead we get Liverpool Athletico in the first round I think that was the third time in the last five years I don't know about you two but is this not a little bit super leaky and it's not like people at the time like back in 21-22 didn't notice what was happening I remember Steve Parish Crystal Palace guy as everyone knows absolutely hated this idea which is no surprise I think he said at the time I can't tell the difference they just sneaked at the European super league past us what is the bloody difference between you know the 18 game midweek thing okay there is a difference obviously but his his point was haven't they got their way again and that's kind of how I feel they almost didn't you know did they need to do it what was something good going to happen for them anyway none of them were really punished not properly and they they they come out of it all right you're fan of the the new Champions League format no I think that's a really interesting point and I'm already really bored of the new Champions League I mean I probably shouldn't say this as a football reporter but I just think the the lack of jeopardy in the league phase as it is now yeah he's so dull and even the jeopardy that there's supposed to be in the last kind of two match rounds doesn't really excite me because it's too complicated there's too much going on and you can't really follow it so I think we'll get to this in the in the kind of what if section but I think it would have got boring very very quickly watching you start to play each other over and over again and I think that was the it would have been the the downfall of it and as as Matt says you could you could kind of make a case of that is the downfall of the competition we've ended up with but I guess the the big difference is that Spurs and Chelsea aren't in the Champions League this year and Spurs Spurs for example look a million miles away from it right now and Ashton Villa are in it so I'm sure Ashton Villa and others would say oh well you know we're happy it didn't go ahead and we're you know we're very happy with this format because we got to qualify on merit which which wouldn't have been the case and the Super League happened just just before we move on to our alternative timeline Matt is there is there any possibility that the idea the original idea of the European Super League could could ever return and rear its rear its ugly head again yeah yeah I think I'll do this really quickly so the guys behind the plan European Super League didn't didn't really despand there's company called 822 who was set up very much in league with Real Madrid to to run this project you know they've they've continued to kick out ideas the most recent one was this thing called the Unify League I don't know if you remember that one they basically have heard the reaction okay you guys don't like a clothes league all right so we'll maintain the old fashioned European idea of an open format and and they've been basically tweaking that kind of you know groups of 10 how often they've continued to come up with ideas and the most recent iteration was this thing called the the the Unify League where they're big if you're like usp was they thought they could give it away there could be a free streamed version you know a bit like kind of how you might pay for either no HBO or or Paramount or whatever you there'd be a kind of an adverts version or even Netflix these days and then one without adverts so they have continued to push the idea as this you don't need you afer break away we'll give you complete control this is to the big clubs now you can play each other more often we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll fiddle around with the format and silly happy and you the punter at home we reckon we can give this to you for free we we think it's going to be so good so compelling that we can we can we can basically we can basically afford a free streamed version but no one's bought no one's bit sorry on that one because the Champions League is still pretty mega right I mean I I totally I'm by by the sort of board and the tedium thing but I think we all start watching again don't we once it hits the knockout stages it it is still amazing football it is still you know I you know I'm a bit cynical but come the court of final semi finals it's it's it's the best football that you that is played is better it's better than the world I mean that the World Cup has different strengths right it's the your country versus my country but the quality of football is is stunning it it doesn't really felt to deliver the similarity between the World Cup and the Champions League now is the you've got to go through all these games that feel low jeopardy and kind of meanless to get to the stuff you actually want to watch and that's a good point what the Champions League's like now and that's what the last World Cup was like to me was like I'm not going to be watching these group games make some of them are still great aren't they? Some of them was yeah you know they're obviously worse than reliant in there but I think the way football is going now is you get a lot of filler to get to the killer and that seems to be just the way competitions are organising themselves well let's see how this idea would have played out then we'll cross over to our alternative timeline so the big question is what if the European Super League actually went ahead so guys will do one version with the big six staying in the Premier League and then another version without because there was a possibility the clubs involved would have been banned from competing in their domestic division so Matt I mean you've talked about the proposed format could it have worked and I think you've both kind of said that you it wouldn't be too enjoyable watching you know the same teams play each other over and over again yeah so so I am I'm going up so I'm I agree with Dan I don't think I the reason this I'm rambled so fast is it wasn't a very good idea a little bit like the FIFA plan right there was there was fundamental flaws with it but I'm going to pretend that right I'm going to I'm going to go with go with the the whole point of this yes go with it yes please so it gets off the ground right and this is and this we're doing part we're doing they stay they carry on playing the Premier League right yeah fine yeah so obviously it kills the Champions League kills the Champions League it kills things like the EFL Cup because these guys are going to be playing midweek or it certainly destroys the value of the EFL Cup because so much of the value of of that the Carre Bell is is that the big teams are in it and they might make the final on that and it's one of the the the EFL's biggest cash cow so I guess that's kind of a small order that's probably down the pecking order but it would it would have definitely killed the Champions League which is pens UEFA's you know absolute fury about it so what would it have done to the Premier League well this is where I think the Premier League the other 14 got so angry so much of the Premier League story you know it kind of sees a long narrative is around the race for Europe if you are taking away the race for Europe because the the top six are in the European Super League you you have strips away some of a big chunk of the storylines so I'm thinking about the impacts on Sky the impacts on C&T or you know I've got the contract now there would have been all kinds of rebates and legal cases there would have been I think massive like bitterness and antagonism from the teams left behind because I've already mentioned earlier on this was going to be if it happened very lucrative so you are adding let's say they were talking about $400 million as well as that great big bang for for for joining which was three hundred three hundred and fifty million dollars you know huge huge advantages cash advantages to the teams that were already enjoying massive advantages because they have the most commercial sponsors they have big you know big grounds and what have you so you know you think about the divide the tears within the Premier League would have just been stretched now would they have been so strict I think I think you would have you'd have just destroyed the competitive balance of the Premier League as well as depriving it of one of its key storylines so it would be really hard to sort of imagine you know three four years of this what would be watching would would be just be watching the top six come top six maybe some shuffling of the order there would would therefore you know casual fans new fans around the world would would this new thing the SLB be where it's at I mean that's certainly the whole point of it that's certainly what you know I'm yelling and Perez and those guys thought they were like this is going to be there this is going to be the main event so you know in terms of like counterfactual if if this had happened if and if they've been able to get some kind of like big big global streaming that was kind of they didn't have a partner but everyone was kind of well I wonder if it's to zone I wonder if it's going to be something they set up themselves you know this this could really have this could have been the NFL it really could and then I think you just you just killed domestic competitions you could argue that La Liga isn't much of a competition anyway PSG and Lake Ligaern but seeing a Serie Ares you know Bundesliga isn't I think Bundesliga and the two Bundesliga clubs and I think PSG would have joined almost certainly because we know the Chelsea and Man City were slightly reluctant they were they were the they were the last of the big six to join and they joined business didn't want to be left out they they and they were the first ones to quit I know it all happened really really fast so I think we'd have got our 15 we never really saw how they were going to do those other five would it have been you know the best the best of the rest from the big five probably would they've done some sort of color fishing then God knows it's it's it's it's hard to say but when you when it was all set up for those founding members we'd have really really quickly got to those are our 15 guys and if you're a new fan by the way around the world choose choose the one you like choose choose the one with a favorite player the favorite color you know the story that appeals to you and that's the kind of football we'd be watching now well how do you think the fans would have reacted you think they would have eventually sort of got on board a little no I think in in both I think in both scenarios so in the scenario where they stay in the Premier League and the scenario where they kicked out I think we probably would have seen six Phoenix clubs spring up like AFC Tottenham AFC Liverpool because of that there was so much fury at these clubs and that was reflected and fans literally taken to the street and protesting and I don't think fans would have stood for it and I think you these Phoenix clubs would have sprung up I think a lot of people would have defected I think a lot of people would have stayed supporting their teams and I think it would have created this kind of horrible chasm between people that that felt pulled in one direction and people that felt they had to go in another and I think these six clubs would have been kind of pariahs sort of a magnified MK Donz where all RB Leibzig in the case of the Bundesliga for example where where kind of everyone else in the league was was actively against them every fixture they played in the Premier League would have been very loaded, very charged, very hostile and they would have just been kind of public enemies for the for the rest of the the the game in this country and kind of fair enough I think for me it feels the club World Cup kind of feels like a good parallel because people did watch the club World Cup and as an employee of the Athletic I'm kind of obligated to say it's a great competition and I enjoyed it but I didn't watch it I didn't watch a minute of it I didn't care about it I just sort of thought this is a fake competition that FIFA's crowbar into the calendar to make load of money and I don't care when's it and it's not it's I don't think it's prestigious that Chelsea won it for example and and I think that's how some people would have looked at the Super League but equally there would you know we know that football is a global game now and that all these English clubs have huge fan bases across the world and I think there would have been people elsewhere who didn't see it that way and who would would be tuning in so I think it would have really there would have been this chasm and you know a lot of the kind of legacy fans as I as I think they've dubbed Matt as I recall you know would have would have defected and got behind AFC Liverpool in the northern port you know Rhyme and whatever but they would still have been this huge global audience but to Matt's point like I just can't see how the Premier League like could have continued because if you imagine last season when it was clear that four of those 16s weren't in the title race pretty early on right but they know they don't have to get in the top four well what what is there to play for because the race for Europe just went down to the last day didn't they yeah and if there was no race for Europe what's if Man City are playing a man and Man United are playing a man should have died in the Premier League in late November they're both they both know they're not going to win the title by this point but they're also meeting a new European Super League on Wednesday night they're going to week play we continue the Premier League and potentially prioritise trying to win the Super League so it just completely devalues the whole Premier League and I think have they been allowed to continue in the Premier League I think we would have eventually got to a point fairly quickly where actually it was in everyone's best interest that they just left well I mean they they could have got obviously kicked out of the domestic competitions from the start right map because um you wait for the Premier League and other top European League said in a joint statement as previously announced by FIFA and the six federations the clubs concerned will be banned from playing in any other competition at domestic European or world level and their players could be denied the opportunity to represent their national team so we'll get on to the their national team bit in just a moment but I mean yeah if they're banned from their domestic league what what would happen to the Premier League to the league uh to the league uh um you know or to uh Serie A even well this is where he gets absolutely kind of fascinating stroke wild right so there would have been a huge amount of legal action going in every possible direction right so I think Dan and is right so there would have been a big reaction here from fans this is this these these these guys are awful just go right we don't you know we'd people that don't like them anyway this would have been great I mean get lost you know we think you're greedy get lost and um the Premier League I think as a sort of unit and maybe some of the kind of cooler heads might have been thinking well hold on a minute you know Liverpool Man United's Arsenal and then the you know the others as well they kind of drive a lot of the traffic here they drive the eyeballs you know the the story of the Premier League over the last 30 years is we were a break away league let's not forget we broke away from everybody else because we saw you know the the winds of change right the coming of pay TV we didn't want to share as much with the rest of with the ratherums and the primates and the south ends of this world so it's worked for us in the early 90s there's there's just be careful here you know we are we absolutely sure we want to boot Man United out of the league I mean that that that we are hell of a step there's an awful lot of Man United fans not just abroad but here as well so there would have been you know huge conversations like seismic conversations around how we respond to this but knowing as I said before these guys have just killed our business model and we're now going to be sued by sky so there'd been an awful lot going on let's just say they were booted out so these these breakaway teams did we're very clear we want to carry on playing domestically you know we need those games we need we need we want to play 50 60 times a year we we have a we have an audience at home to serve those 18 games are not enough so what would they have done what they had to force it would they have would they have expanded the European Super League you know maybe what what what else would they have done I think is it's quite an interesting conversation to how how what would the Premier League have done like saying goodbye to these six big draws I wonder if there would have been a kind of like well right that lot of gone we need to club together with the AFL so maybe there would have been I think there would have almost certainly been some kind of reconfiguration of English football I wonder and by our mind this would have been going on elsewhere as well it had been going on in Spain and like I said pretty much all the other big five leagues as I think they would have all joined it in our it's going to work scenario I think cross border leagues domestically would have to kind of rival the excitement of this new thing happening so I think Celtic and Rangers is it you know would we would we would have a British League I think there would be you know kind of really interesting sort of conversations to be had around well why you know they they've just done the NFL thing should we should we have a some sort of well super team now is that rexam I mean you know that's the way it sort of come you know it was an all accident but we want to we want a big team of Cardiff don't we should why don't we have a big team in Belfast why don't we have a big team in in Dublin and I think similar conversations would have been happening in on the continent as well you know would be have a Benelux League would it be a Belgium French with you know everyone would have been looking around and doing the same sums we have just lost our biggest draws right our biggest you know in terms of match day but most importantly broadcast and commercial what do we do about it and what would UEFA have done about it would they have gone all right fine Champions League's dead guys we we are now going to have a rival competition to the Champions League maybe it is the Champions the European Cup that I used to watch the way back when you know is it do we go knockout do we do what do we do we try and revitalize East European football do it what what do we do how do we fight this thing that has just shafted us so I just think it could have gone in so many exciting ways I sound like I kind of wish it happened yeah I was like what are you saying here well I think lots of people lots of people were romanticising that idea weren't they you know there are a lot of people who hadn't thought through the consequences and quite the same detail as Matt I think but who were thinking just go you know let's let's have a let's have a Premier League which is more a egalitarian where most of the teams have got a shot winning the league at the start of the season where you know it feels more evenly balanced and and I think there there is still that that feeling like you know I'm in a I'm in a subreddit called the other 14 where you know last season everyone wanted Tottenham to get relegated and they actively clubbed together no matter who they support in the Premier League against the big six because you know they they're still that that sense that kind of everything is skewed and in their favour so I think there were a lot of people romanticising it but it's fascinating to hear Matt talk about across border league and I think how judging that would have well I think bring you know there's obviously been a lot of talk over the years about bringing Celtic arrangers into the English football pyramid I think that makes a lot of sense but obviously what does that do then to the rest of Scottish football is a question you'd have to consider yeah I think there's an appeal in that but then the very forces that were kind of driving the super league the kind of NFL education of the of the game um I think would you know people would still be pushing back on if you would you you were trying to kind of create franchise clubs and create artificial sides because you know people want that um you know want that traditionalism and kind of connection with their team don't they? I just wonder what let's just play this out what how would it work for stuff like transfers for example what's going to say well I mean guess one other thing we should say is that you know Matt Matt said we've kind of ended up with with a super league um with the new champions league format but we've also kind of ended up with a super league with the Premier League itself as it is in in the modern game like you look at the money the Premier League is able to spend compared with every other major league in Europe you look at the the managers the coaches that kind of middle class quote unquote Premier League clubs are able to attract from the continent you look at the players these middle class clubs and obviously the leading clubs are able to sign now and it does feel like Europe has its own super league and it's just the English top flight um and I think in this scenario you know had these teams working away and then not being um you know not going to allow the Premier League I guess the Premier League and the sort of rest of the top leagues that lost clubs would start to feel a bit like how kind of the rest of I guess legal and the rest of the Bundesliga sort of feels currently like they just can't compete in the market um like uh you know they are um it kind of just completely in the shadow of this this league where you know the money's pouring in and and and consequently they're they're so much mightier but that fear of the Premier League was one of the catalysts behind this whole idea you know and and yelling was quite candid about that when he was sort of kind of talking about this and justifying why why the big clubs in Europe needed to do something it's look if we just like you know stand around and do nothing he talks a lot about he thought that the kids weren't weren't as interested and we've got you know we're fighting computer games and mobile phones and skateboarding whatever it might be he talks a lot about that but he also kind of very strongly hinted and at times set it out loud if we do nothing right we're just left behind you know serial left behind La Liga left behind the Premier League is galloping off into the distance we need to do something so that that was that was a big part of it um and I think your question about transfer is him is really interesting because again that was there was real concern amongst the big clubs and I go back to my pandemic point the timings important that they were all losing too much money and they were losing loads of money and actually within the ESL agreement was a kind of I think it was actually I think it was I don't think it was even a kind of you know a general disagreement it was there it was it was in it was in the rules they weren't going to poach from each other so there would have been massive knock on effects to your transfer system and I wonder what the you know the players unions so many of these things we didn't even get a chance of the bait them because it died so quickly but that that sounds a lot like kind of a proper cartel type behavior right we're we're not going to poach from each other we're going to try and depress wages and transfer fees we're all going to make some money for once again like the NFL does where there's a kind of strict control over you know your labor costs so there's so much that was in in the detail that was really interesting but never really got a chance to be talked about because the actual over idea over all idea was bad and no one as Dan was saying right at the beginning wanted to champion it apart from Perez I think he did one really awful kind of chat show it was going to say football or something yeah it was it was it was it was not good and then the the first time we in the UK heard anyone talk about it was sort of like the kind of hostage video that John W Henry did where he kind of like said I'm sorry I we massively misread this we won't do it again it's been much the last time we've heard from him so I said we'd get to another part of our alternative timeline of what happens to international football because FIFA and the six continental confederations said that players who feature would be banned from playing in its competition so that's the World Cup that's the euros as Afcon could international football continue with without arguably their best players well I'll have a go at this and then I've been treated here what Dan thinks so this very much was part of if you like the the official formal football response to this anyone that does this you're out so we don't actually need to speculate here because the the the powers you know the ESL gang continue to litigate this idea that they went to the European court of justice and we had a ruling had a ruling a couple of years ago and and that threat was OTT right it was it it's a really nuanced ruling that the European Super League ruling it basically kind of gave both sides some wins right so it's said to the European Super League guys yes in theory there's nothing to stop you or anyone else coming along and setting up a rival football competition under EU competition law that's that's that's fine you know you just got to sort of you know make sure you do it kind of properly and notify people blah blah blah blah and crucially we don't like closed leagues in Europe so they'd already learned that lesson because I'd already mentioned they decided to sort of tweak their idea but equally it was said to you AFA and FIFA you can't you know you can't just bully people right just because you know you guys are in charge now and it's it's the way things are you can't like unilaterally just say to some new arrival in in the market and say you're all banned before you even start doing anything we don't like you you know we're going to boycott you ban your players that that that is not that is anti competitive behavior that's what monopolies do so so the UEFA's how you wait for response to these ideas in future there are now some rules in place you know if you are notified properly you have to kind of listen to the idea and you have to sort of kind of go okay you have to be even handed about it you can't prioritize and favorite and and and and play favorites you can't say well we've got shape as a tournament is ours and we're not we're not having you because you're a company so so there there's been some kind of guide rails put in that you're meant to be going along with this just for you know for the podcast come on you know I'm sort of I'm happy to go on you do it then no I'm joking well I mean I know I think that's covered that side of it really well I mean I think let's imagine they they had been banned from playing for their countries I think you then got a scenario where some players have a really difficult decision to make and I'm thinking of someone like Harry Kane who I think has made it pretty clear that he sees the biggest honour in his career and the most prestigious part of his career is representing his country you know does does Harry Kane then have a decision to make about whether he stays with to me to it suppose at the time wasn't he whether he stays with Tottenham and goes to play in this European Super League or moves to a club outside it and what ramifications do I have do we get some superstars playing outside the league because they want to continue playing international tournaments and I think that would be fascinating and it would almost be like the you know the live golfers who are the sort of the guys you see said now to live golf and and kind of you know we're we're celebrated for it okay right it is time for our verdict then so which timeline do you both personally prefer European Super League or no European Super League I think I know the answer but this is you know we've got a round off the podcast okay say Matt what are you saying well well I'm saying I'm saying no European Super League bad idea the fans very clearly voted it fell apart really fast no one really fought for it and you know what they kind of got a lot of what they wanted anyway so so but but I'm glad Dan talks about live there's a there's an example there of a disruptor league that tried and failed like we could mention euro leagues which is a big basketball thing there's a lot but the parallels there anyone that follows European basketball will know that one that was a breakaway league that has worked and by on large well soos cricket was another one that was often talked about the time that failed so these things are difficult the NFL itself you know the way it kind of grew and so they're they're examples out there I think the thing that I just want to say just as my last thought really is we're kind of agreeing a lot aren't we now we're all you know brits and we've kind of grew up with this but when I when I've written about this and I've written about this a lot it is worth looking in the comments right and what we think is absolutely normal and natural is not necessarily what are many North American for example and elsewhere and younger younger readers from everywhere think and I've always I've made this point several times to kind of exec some administrators or what have you the the comments sections of my pieces around this we're always quite quite I'm like all right not not everybody instinctively agrees with me a lot of our readers and listeners don't mind this idea never minded this idea and I'll always see I don't know that's what the big deal was European super league sounds great so that's I'm just I just want to sort of put that out there that you know so there's a lot I don't I'm not accusing us of group think but we are thinking as a group it's an important point and again there's parallels with the expanded world cup there right you know most of us would say don't put 211 teams in the world cup but there are plenty of people around the world that would say why not that sounds brilliant my country gets to compete there are loads more games which I can watch and they the bigger the better so I think Matt raises a good point all right well I think we've got our verdict Matt that was a fantastic debut I'm also I'm also very happy with it I'm also very happy with it I mean you'll be I was kind of intrigued by by Matt's idea for this new kind of cross-border league um you know I'd like to I'd like to experience that reality but be able to go back to yeah to this reality um oh I see you want to try you want a little pilot project yeah I just think fundamentally Matt said it a few times bad idea because I just think it would have been boring so quickly I really really do and at least in the Champions League as it is which I still find quite boring that there's a bit of variety and you know we might get Brentford in at next season and and that you know there are still these storylines but a glimpsed spring to mind you know you can really invest in and that just wouldn't have been the case and I think it would have had a huge global audience around the world to Matt's point and there would be people that would love seeing Liverpool play the Madrid you know five times the season but I wouldn't have been one of them and I would have found it very tedious very quickly I just want to you know Dan I think you've nailed it for me how many Real Madrid and Bayern Munich fans blah blah do you do you work with do you see on a Monday morning after the weekend or the Thursday morning after whenever they were going to play you know football is great because it's local right you know you you bump in Sir Arsenal Spurs whatever your rival bar all the time but this idea that we can sort of jam pack this these these different teams from different countries and it's going to feel the same I just I never bought it I never bought it you know what domestic football is great because yeah I know some I know some rival fans and you know I'm going to talk about the game with them guys thank you it was fun seeing how life might have looked just for an hour I think so we'll you know we'll leave the European Super League there but thank you so much we're back with another what if next week we'll catch you there