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Hello and welcome to the TFO Football Podcast. I'm Joe Devine, and today I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie. Hello, Joe. All right, John, how's it going? Good, thank you. How are you? I'm good, thanks, man. Now, what are we doing on today's episode? We're doing Ring for Analysis. Very exciting, audio-exclusive, of course. And today is very special because it's part one of a two-part special Ring for Analysis episode mini-series, all about Brian Kluff, and it was written by Daniel Taylor and actually published in 2019 on the Athletics. So we're digging deep into the archives. We're digging very deep into the archives. This was actually, this was and remains my favorite ever, the Athletic article. I love it. It's a terrific story. The headline is the remarkable tale of two boys who went begging for pennies and ended up living with Brian Kluff. Yes, John. I want to ring for analysis before we even got there. Well, before you do that, can you just explain what Ring for Analysis is and what that bell they just heard was? Well, before I get to that, let me just say, when you said the Athletic, I've learned all kinds of things from having to go through the process of editing my book, one of which is that often you don't put the V in, so at least in footnotes, it was a telegraph after all. Yeah, so it will just say telegraph. Really? So I take you to say it was a the Athletic article. This thing will blow your mind even more. The rules for the publishing house that I'm at have a rule where you italicize the name of the publication if it's a written publication. But not if it's visuals. If it's digital only, so if it's like, so the Athletic in my footnote is not italicized, but the Times or the New York Times would be italicized. They're going to have to change that rule. It's weird, isn't it? It feels as though I feel disrespected because that makes me feel like T-fo wouldn't be italicized. It wouldn't. But it should be. You think it should. Maybe we need to publish something written. We've published a book. Yeah, count. I don't know. The Athletic's got books. Yeah, it's true. But I think that they would say if it's written, then you italicize it, but if not, then it doesn't. I just can't get my head around that. I can't either. Like, who's that for? Well, two things. One, I quite like that as an example because as an example of what happens throughout the rest of the episode. That's exactly the kind of deviation that we will go on here. That's how this works. I read the article and John Ring's a little bell that you heard earlier. Here it is again. And when you hear that bell, that's John wants to interrupt and do some analysis. Just like he did. Or teaching me something new. And number two, have you mentioned that you're publishing a book before? I think here and there. Yeah, I'm publishing a book. It's out later this year. I can tell you more about it in a little while. Yeah, probably exciting. And maybe we'll do a ring for analysis. I think that's a good idea. I think we should. Only on the good bits though. So probably half a page. Or something. Yeah. The intro is quite short. Maybe you'd just do it. Yeah, just on the intro. That's fine. Okay. Well anyway, this episode is about Brian Cluff. And unusually. So on these episodes, if you've listened to us do ring for analysis before. We've done it about news stories. We've done it on some explainers of things that are happening. We've done a little bit about football, you know, football stuff. This is very different. This is a story. This is much more like story time. And then John interrupts at various points. When he's got something that he wants to add. So some of it's analysis. Some of it is just a palace intrigue. You know, I mean, none of it's palace intrigue. But some of it's sort of podcast studio intrigue. Very exciting. And what sort of things do we get to, John? Apart from, of course, the 10-part Guy Forks quiz. Very near the beginning. Yeah, well, we explain Guy Forks data. People who maybe don't know about it. Joe does very well on children's quiz. Thanks for that. Seven or eight. Depending on how you look at it. It was eight out of ten. Well, I think the most interesting thing here is just the character of Brian Cluff, right? We talk about that quite a lot. Who, incidentally, we explain. For anyone listening who feels like, oh, maybe I don't know enough about Brian Cluff, do not worry. You don't need to know anything about him to listen to this. This is part of the fun of the story is that we stop and explain who he is and give some context and background in order to make it accessible for people who maybe aren't familiar with him. Yeah. I think a nice story because it involves a tale of outright humanity from a football manager who goes out of his way to help a couple of kids who are from, obviously, from a difficult home background and are in a difficult spot and helps them out. And it reveals a side to Cluff that maybe isn't often seen. In fact, Danny Taylor goes out of his way to say, he doesn't even talk about this in his autobiography. So he's not doing this for a QDoS. He's not doing this to say to people, look how great I am. It's just a genuinely good actor. It's incredibly heartwarming. It actually reminds me of another story that are very briefly retail. And I wish I could remember the name of the journalist I spoke to who was from a Leicestershire newspaper. He published this on Twitter on the day that Alex Ferguson suffered that brain hemorrhage. Do you remember when it seemed as though he might pass away that day? And the story was that there was a local woman in Leicestershire who kept coming into the newspaper office to speak to this journalist who was publishing the story. And it would sometimes complain because she was a massive man-united fan. She would sometimes complain that the newspaper didn't publish stories about man-united. And the journalist would explain to her, well, this is a local Leicestershire paper. Man, just as not in our region, so he's not in our coverage belt. Anyway, one day she came in and talked to the journalist again. And she told him this story that he then told on Twitter. And the woman was elderly at the time, I'm sure, long dead by the time this was published. And it seemed as though Alex Ferguson might also be, you know, he's in kind of medical peril at that moment. The story was similarly to Cluff who never talked about this, never told anyone this. This wasn't for publicity. This was just something that he did privately. This woman was old traffic's oldest season ticket holder. And she was going to have to give up her ticket because she got too elderly to make the journey into attend. So for, I can't remember how many years, but for years, Alex Ferguson at personal cost sent a mini bust to Leicester to pick her up, bring her to the game, take her back again afterwards, and then to come back to Manchester and never told anybody about it. And just did this because it was important to, as far as he was concerned, it was important to the football club that that was the way that you acted within the community. And the thing that I thought was so special about that story, very similar to this one, he never used it for publicity. It wasn't about people thinking he was a good guy. As far as he was concerned, I'm sure, you know, it's probably a story that he would prefer wasn't out there in the media right. But when you do, you know, it's very rare that you get the opportunity to hear about these things. But when you do hear about them, they mean all the more. Especially I think in the week where we've seen Tottenham Hotspur, a point of manager that many of the fans actively voiced their lack of support for. Yes, I think we very much ended up going in the opposite direction of football as well, where the club will talk about this notion of like having members. And you know, that's what a club is, right? A club is just a collection of people who are all sharing the same sort of membership and ideal. And football clubs are clubs of people who wanted to watch a team and support a team. And I think in the present day, clubs are very quick to jump on that rhetoric and be like, you know, they talk about more than a club, they talk about, you know, the kind of environment that that club engenders, they talk about the support, et cetera, et cetera. But often, actually, when often financial aspects of the game, like rear their head, that rhetoric disappears completely. And I think it's so nice to see grandiose of the game like club, like Ferguson. Yeah, actually part of the reason why they were great is because they understood the role of the football club within the community, within the fan base, within that group of members who will share that one purpose, which is just a football club. Well, that's what this story is about today. So let's start telling us, shall we? Now, as a reminder, John, this article is called the remarkable tale of two boys who went begging for pennies and ended up living with Brian Clough. And it was written by Daniel Taylor. And it was originally published October the 15th, 2019, which is before I even worked at the athletic, along with all you worked here as well. Absolutely. Okay, you ready for me to begin? Let's begin. Here we go. It began with two boys from a council estate in Sunderland, a quote, couple of scruffies end quote, to use their own description, trying to raise a few quid from what kids of a certain generation will know as guying. Bonfire Knight was approaching, school was finishing for the day, and the boys were positioned strategically with their Guy Falk style outside the best hotel in town. Yes, John? I was thinking for our non-UK audience, we should probably explain Guy Falks. Yeah, would you like to? Well, that's true. Guy Falks is not an international figure. Yeah, I believe Americans are quite surprised by the concept of Guy Falks. Although maybe many of them will have seen Guy Falks in that popular film with Natalie Portman, which is called Viva Vendetta. Okay, no, tell me about Guy Falks. I thought the best way of doing this was to give you a quiz. Oh, yes. So I've found on the BBC website the horrible histories, Guy Falks and the gunpowder plot quiz. No, this will be intended for children. Yes, so I should get every question right. So there's ten questions. Okay. And they are multiple choice. Okay, okay. I just want to know how many you think you're going to get right. I think I'm going to get ten right. You're going to get all ten right. Yes. Well, let's begin. The gunpowder plot was an attempt to blow up what? St Paul's Cathedral, Westminster Cathedral, houses of Parliament. And houses of Parliament. That's right, the houses of Parliament. I want to tell you, I only want the multiple choice when I ask for it. Okay. Wow, bold. Yeah. Who was supposed to be in Parliament of the day of the planned explosion, the main target of the plot? The Prime Minister and the Queen. You want to go for... Well, the Queen is an answer. Would you like that? I would like that, yeah. The answer is the King. Well, that's what I meant, the head of the monarch. Okay, so we're calling it two out of ten. We absolutely are. Which seems a bit generous to me, but... The sentiment was correct. Yeah, potentially. Well, you're really going to be put to the test now, because the next question is, which King was the gunpowder plot intended to assassinate? Well, it was 1605, right? Mm-hmm. Was it 1405? No, 1405. 1415 was the Battle of Hagen Gore, working forwards. I think it was 1605. So it would have been... King... 16 of five. Would you like... No, I want the multiple choice. So one is King John, two is King Charles II, three is Henry VIII, and four is James I. Oh, they all sound... Oh, it's James I. It's James I. It's James I. It's James of Macbeth. That's right. Right. Correct. Three out of ten. In which year was the gunpowder plot attempted? 1605. 1605 is the correct answer. Oh, come on. How many men were in the gang of plotters? Ooh. I might need a multiple choice on this one. So you've got 25, 3, 9 and 13. 13. 13 is the correct answer. It's an unholy number, isn't it? You've got to have 13 if you're going for an unholy plot. It's true. Who is thought to have been in charge of those plotters? Was it not Guy Forks? Well, I mean, he's an option on here. Well, give me the multiple choice. The options are Robert Katsby, Guy Forks, John Wright, or Robert Keys. Oh, Robert Keys. The answer is Robert Katsby. Oh, that's what I said. So it's still 5 out of 5? It's... I think it is. Move out of the seat. What was the next question? What was Guy Forks' nickname? Oh, God. Do you want the multiple choice? Yes. Forkster. Forkai. Forkai. Mr. Bang. Mr. Bang. Or Guida. It's Guida. It is Guida. Because, you know why it was Guida? I don't know there. I think his mother remarried after his father died and married a very strict Catholic. And so at some point he went over to Spain and fought with the Spanish because he was... Yeah. That's obviously where the Catholic crown was. I don't know why he went to conspane. Well, they could have been Guida. Yeah, that's cool. Which of the plotters wrote a letter to his brother-in-law which revealed the plot? Was it Thomas Percy, John Wright, Francis Tresham, or Thomas Winter? Was it Percy? I thought it was Percy, but it's not. It was Francis Tresham. Oh, God. These side characters. No wonder Netflix writes them out of the story, you know. Guy Fawkes was caught in the act holding... Oh, sorry, hiding under Parliament with the gunpowder the night of November the 4th. Yeah. But what name did he give when questioned? This is actually quite funny. The options are Guy Geisen, Boom, Boomson, Sam Samson, or John Johnson. He didn't say John Johnson. He said John Johnson. Oh, my God. This is the last question now. Yeah. What was Guy Fawkes' intended punishment for being involved in the plot? Right. Life in prison? A £40 fine, hanged, drawn and quartered, or sent to Australia? I think it was hanged, drawn and quartered, wasn't it? That's indeed hanged, drawn and quartered. Okay. So that was nine out of ten. I think it was eight out of ten, yeah. For a quiz that was intended for children. Yeah. That's not bad. Well, no, it's okay, yeah. I mean, you'd probably get sats off the back of that. But you said I'd probably get sacked off the back of that. I hope not. How are you drawn and sacked? Well, anyway, you were saying the context which is Guy Fawkes night is fireworks night. It's the 5th of November. Remember, remember, the 5th of November, it's when Guy Fawkes and St. Plotters try to blow up. And I know of no reason why they gone powered of treason should have. It could never be forgotten. And indeed, you know, it does depend on your vertical perspective. Obviously, it's never nice when people die in acts of a terrorism. It's true. But there you go. So yeah, Guy Fawkes night is celebrated November the 5th. Right. And one way that we celebrate that is making a bonfire and throwing a guy on top of it. Was it the same year that Macbeth was published? Oh, really? I don't know. Well, I mean, certainly was around. Or was that 1601? When was James the first... When was James Bondan? Anointed. 16. Because he was James the 6th of Scotland. Right. And then he became James the 1st of England. But Macbeth was written in his honour. The reason you're thinking of Macbeth is Macbeth was a Jacobin tragedy believed to be influenced by the gunpowder plot of 1605. Right. But the play was published in 1623. Okay. So quite quite a bit later there. Okay. That's like the same as for us now. Something happening in 19... Well, that's like the same as someone writing a play about about 1911. That's not right. Sorry, that's not right. This is my fault for going with the AI. But it was first performed in 1611. But it was first published in 1623. Okay. So it was sort of five, six years later. Yeah. So it's like us writing a play about Covid. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty recent stuff, huh? The Covid play. Yeah. I mean, most of the Covid TV was shit, I think. Yeah, it was true. I'd say so. Should I carry on reading? I've only done one paragraph. Yeah. Sorry, I have already derailed us. But this is quite a discursive... Not discursive. The opposite of discursive piece. Quiet. Not spoken. Monologic. Monological. Yes. It's a monological piece. Yeah. I think the Guy Forks context was necessary there. So that's what these boys are doing. They're outside the hotel. They've got their best Guy Forks doll. And they are guying. I guess we're going to find out what guying means, right? Okay. Picking up. The date was October the 19th, 1984. They'd made their guy from a pillowcase stuffed with newspaper, a school jumper, and a pair of battered old corduroy's. The face was drawn on with their mum's lipstick. Their mantra was, penny for the guy? And to begin with, 11-year-old Craig Bronfield and his 13-year-old brother Aaron didn't realise they might have hit the jackpot. When a group of men came into view wearing red tracksuit tops, with Adidas stripes on the sleeves, and quote some kind of flower on the chest. The flower was actually the tree of the Nottingham Forest crest. Brian Cluff's team was staying at the Seaburn Hotel, preparing for a game against Newcastle United. And it turned out professional footballers could be a lot more generous with their money than the locals. And certainly a lot less frightening than the stranger, head shaven, bother boots, eyes filled with hate, who'd terrorised them earlier that evening, aiming a kick at their guy for no other reason than Aaron was mixed race. Kenny Swain, the forest left back, was the first to take an interest, and didn't seem to mind when one of the boys asked if they were a basketball team. Yes, John. I think that's really weird, like in the 1980s, an automatic thought to be, here's a sports team, so it must be a basketball team. I guess it was basketball popular in the United States. I don't think so. Certainly not in the UK, right? Where are we now? Are we in Sunderland, right? We're in the North East. They're playing against Newcastle, so they're there in that area. Right, yeah, okay. So we're in the Northeast. Maybe Kenny Swain was really tall. Was he? How tall was Kenny Swain? He's a left back, so I doubt it. He was 1.8 metres tall. What's that? I don't know. Oh, 5-11. Not tall enough to be a basketball player. But I just thought it was interesting that they saw a sports team in the street. I mean, immediately thought that. Actually, when I was at St Andrews at university, the Barbarians, which is, I guess, a Southern Hemisphere team, went on tour, and they stayed in St Andrews, and I saw the team walking past in the street. I literally walked past them. I didn't know any of them, because I don't know rugby. They were like, they were all 6-5. Were they massive? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I guess they liked it too. Whenever I go and see football in person, I remember going to see, I can't remember who they were playing. It wasn't at Old Trafford. It was another team, but it was mainly 90, because it was Paul Pogba, that I was watching from the stands. And he was so much taller than all the other people he was playing with. I guess it was six-two, something six-three, something like that. And I remember looking down at him and thinking, he looks like a giant, and then realizing, I'm so much taller. And also nowhere near as svelte. So if I was stood down there on the field with those players, I would look like Hagrid or something. I was actually at Paul Pogba's debut. Where are you? Not his second debut. His first debut. His first senior team debut. Yeah, so he came on against Lee's. And I assume it was the FA Cup. Could have been the League Cup. Right. And he came on and everyone, and I remember at the time being like, oh, this is the guy that everyone's sort of excited about who's come through their academy. Yeah. See what happens to him? And he wasn't particularly impressive in that game. No, obviously went on to be. Did you see his youth team highlights? Yeah, I mean, he absolutely busted. They're out of this world. His long-distance skulls were... I remember people talking about him at the time and then I watched a couple of videos and I was like, who the fuck is this guy? My god. It's funny how that happens though. I mean, we talked on the podcast on Wednesday, Thursday. Yeah. We talked about it on Wednesday, but the podcast was on Thursday about Max Downen playing as a 16-year-old in under 19s and he looked like he was on a completely different level. Right. And it is kind of interesting when those kind of players do make this step up. Now, obviously, Max Downen has made that step up quite impressively. Yeah. But for most... I think even for most phenomes at that age... It doesn't work like that. It doesn't quite work like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe it did for Kenny Swain. Anyway, so I'll pick up from there. That's the kids who thought maybe it was a basketball team. And Kenny Swain didn't seem to mind being asked that. Swain, a European cup winner with Aston Villa two years earlier, explained who they were. He apologized for not having any spare change and he asked them to wait while he went into the hotel to see what he could find. When he came back out, he had a sheet of paper filled with autographs. Quote, he told us he was sorry he hadn't been able to get everyone, but some of the players had gone to bed. End quote, Craig, speaking to the athletic 35 years later, recalls. Quote, he promised that if he went back in the morning, he would get the rest. And he gave us a five pound note. If I'm honest, I spent more time looking at that than at the autographs. It was the first time anyone had ever given me a fiver. At 7.30 the next day, the boys were back. Cluff was on his morning walk along the sea front and if you were to try to make sense of the following chain of events, it doesn't feel like an exaggeration to say that it's the kind of story that should probably be turned into a film. And for Craig, in particular, it was the beginning of a relationship that has shaped his entire life. I just wondered if we should give like a brief Brian Cluff overview of the audience, because I think a lot of people probably won't know that much about him. That's true, and this article is written for people who do already know who Brian Cluff is, right? So please go ahead. So Brian Cluff is obviously one of the most famous English coaches of all time. Had a pretty good career until he got injured, played for England, I think. As a footballer, you mean? Yeah, as a footballer, played for England on a couple of occasions, I think. And then became a coach when that injury forced him to retire. Yeah. And had a quite an impressive start to his managerial career with, I think he took Hartley Paul to promotion and then went to Derby County where he famously got them into the top division winning the league in the old English first division. He then has a failed to stint at Brighton and Hove Albion. And a lot of the undercurrent here from the footballing perspective is that Peter Taylor, his assistant, sort of follows him and sometimes he's there, sometimes he isn't, and seems to be quite talismanic for him in terms of his success. Yes. Well, there's also worth pointing out at this moment, that the film The Damned United, that has Michael Sheen play, play Brian Cluff, the whole story centers around how important Peter Taylor was to him, how they were more of a duo really than he was an iconic individual. That's a terrific film if people haven't seen it, they should watch it. Yeah, it's also, I think, the best football film. It's also a really good novel if people prefer novels and David Pieces. No one prefers novels, John. Well, I think some people maybe do. Some people definitely do prefer novels. But, yeah, I think that's one of the best novels about football as well. They notoriously hard topic to write well about, I think, for novels. Yeah. Probably just because it's so embedded in the English psyche in particular. But, yeah, so that's the story of Damned United is the story of Cluff's time at Legionited, and with some of the bits around the edges, sort of filling in the context, and talking about how Peter Taylor doesn't go to Leeds with Cluff, and Cluff doesn't last very long at Leeds at all. He fails spectacularly, actually. Yeah, and he goes in at a period in time. I can't remember, is it 44 days, I think, is the famous, because I think Igor Tudor did the same thing. As did Liz Truss, was she 44 days? She was 44, yeah. But, yeah, I think the, he's quite, almost quite belligerent in that period when he's at Leeds, and I think a big part of it is because he was replacing Don Revy. Which would be, for reference, would be like replacing Ferguson or something, not necessarily in footballing success, but in terms of how iconic he was. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you almost get that like merenio element, I think, with Cluff. Yeah. At least that's the way that David Peace portrays it, right? He is this guy who has dominated the scene for a long time. Here's the young obstacle coming in, and he almost defines himself against that. He's subversive. Yeah. So in the same way that maybe, I know that Jonathan Wilson has talked about how merenio, you can almost read his life as a reaction to the Barcelona school and the Pep Guardiola tactical approach. Almost the other way around, I guess, in this one where the younger manager was the one who was like setting himself apart. So there's a famous scene where he says you can take all of those medals and you can throw them in the bin. Yeah. You didn't win them as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, you cheated. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the right cheater. Yeah. You got the most successful stint. When's the European couple of times as well? Twice in a row. Yeah. First time's right. It never happened, right? I think so. Yeah. No. First time it ever happened for an English club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because famously Ramadrid won it for 100 times. Six times in a row. Yeah. Six times in a row. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So, yeah. That's the brief story of him. But quite complex and curious and often tortured individual. Sure. In many respects. And I think it's what's most interesting. I think so well. Yes. He's a terrific character. Yeah. He sort of flips between on the one hand as we're going to talk about in this story, acts of extreme altruism that you just wouldn't expect from a celebrity in the modern day even. Or necessarily a person. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To then all of the more complex aspects and the reality is at the end, club struggles with alcoholism, essentially drank himself to death in the end. Yeah. I think that's what I can such an interesting character in English football. One other thing that I think is worth pointing out about him as well is that I think one of the reasons he's so loved and admired is because he's clearly an intellectual. So, there's a type of football fan that responds to him in a way that they don't respond to others. He was also famous for going on TV a lot, doing punditry, saying things that would, you know, rile up other managers and he was incredibly smart about how he spoke. In many ways, like, he set the template for the modern English football manager using the media to his advantage as a kind of toxic manipulator in some ways. But he was, you know, you called him a cervic earlier, right? That's what he was. That's why he reached an audience that maybe other types of managers haven't previously. Yeah. And there's so many good clips of him on YouTube if you want to go watch it. And Dylan. And yeah, yeah, he's, and he's really, we're going to talk, I want to talk about accents later, but he has, it's so funny where I think we're listening back to regional accents, back, even back 50 years, right? Because I think regional accents have got so much more pronounced now than they were. For example, if you think of the Beatles versus like Jamie Carrigo or Stephen Gerard, where the Beatles are like, oh, this is how we speak. We've got to live a ball accent, but it's not, it's not, where is with like... We're trying to make sure we can understand that. It's like, when you hit Thomas, say, you peep down the page, and you get all of that stuff. But then now, obviously, it's Carrigo and Gerard and it's much more, like, heavily pronounced, I think. Yeah. That's also there probably because those guys are like, better trapped in a world with other kids. All they do is play football with kids who come from Liverpool initially, right? Right. It's almost as though you double down, double, triple down on the, on the local. But I think the same is true of cluff, right? He's got, he's got a Northeast accent because I think he was born in, was he born in Sondland? Or was he certainly born around there? Yeah. And he thought, whenever you hear him speak, you don't necessarily think, oh, that guy is obviously from the Northeast. He's got a sort of, that sort of soft, softly spoken regional accent. Yeah. You think it's back from a time, though, where there were still, you know, there were still these ideas in, you know, regional grammar schools that, like, there, people still had allocution lessons. And I say that with, with, like, drenched in a little, a little bit of sick because, you know, I think it's only relatively recently and actually, you know, my wife who has a regional accent would argue that she is still whether consciously or unconsciously judged by people to be more stupid than me. And I have a, I have like, what, what, what do I have? I've got a soft RP. I've got a soft RP. But you've got military background, right? That's what that is. I have a military background. That's right. I was in the military and therefore I have a military background. That's right. No, my grandfather was in the military, moved around a lot. My mother was born overseas on a military base. So she has, she has this kind of undefined accent. That's where I got it from, despite living in different places. My point is more that, you know, for a long time in England, people who were born in regional areas, basically people who weren't born in the South East. You and I were both born in like regional areas. Yeah. And yet we haven't got those accents. No, no. And I think, you know, for me, my, my dad's from Liverpool. He has that really softly spoken scout accent that we talked about with the Beatles, because he grew up in Liverpool in the, in the 1950s. And my mom grew up in like suburbia of, of Manchester. She went to school in Burnley for a bit. She, when she gets back with her family, she slips into a Manchester, like a, a regional Manchester accent. But I think the combination of like, I've, you know, I did most of my growing up in North Wales. I was born in Yorkshire. I went to university in Scotland and then down South. I sort of been everywhere. But I ended up with a very neutral accent. And it's definitely benefited me. But sometimes it gets a bit more of them. He did point that out the other day. Yeah. But yeah, I think again, like we, we've definitely been benefited by having neutral accents in that respect. For sure. But that's kind of the point I'm making. I think, I think that's because of a, of an attitude in British class history and culture that, that would have led to people from regional places, aka not the southeast, not London, trying to learn RP being taught it by their schoolmasters or whatever, their teachers. Because there was some idea that this was the correct way to speak, which is obviously absurd. It's absurd. But I do think it results in the kind of sound that Brian Kluff had. You know, he was, he was an educated, very intelligent man. He spoke, he spoke that way on purpose, I think. Yeah, I think. Yeah, he was how JJ pretends to be Scottish. You know, even though we know he's got an English accent, he spent his whole life perfecting this Scottish accent to try and trick people into believing that he was somehow better than us. I think, again, that's all part of his ability and skill as a, as a retaretician, right? JJ. No, no, no. Right. To Brian Kluff now. Yeah. Like Brian Kluff knew that like a big part of what he was doing was getting responses from people in the way that he spoke. And I think, because he said he's obviously very well educated, but he does come from a working class background. Like he's, he obviously hasn't been formally educated to speak that way. Sure. He's, he's been able to pick up on those things and, and bring them with him along the way. Yeah. In part, why he was so successful. But he was very, he was very theatrical. Oh, he speaks independently. Oh, he speaks independently. In, in, I'm not going to do his accent, but in a well, well, well, well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's tones as well. It's not just that his accent or the words he's using. Especially on, like, I watched a few clips of him this morning, because I was just like, I'd really like to be able to do Brian Kluff well, and I just can't. No. But I also think part of that is because his accent changes quite a lot. Yeah. I noticed, like, in the, like, particularly in like the, the, the 70, 60, 70s, when he's on TV, he, he tries to be a little bit, I think he tries to be a bit more passive and sort of, he becomes quite droly, which is the famous him accent, where he's like, well, you can throw all of those pots and pans in the bin. Yeah. He's sort of quite, which almost sounds like the Beatles, right? That almost sounds like a Beatles accent to me. Yeah. But again, I think that, that was because he was hyper aware of the fact he's on TV. And that's why he's got, he's eminently quotable. He clearly sat around before going on TV, thinking how, like, what, what is my big line going to be today, right? And it's the famous ones like, I want to say I'm the greatest manager of all the time, but I'm definitely in the top one. They say whatever he says, right? It's like he, he, you don't just, you just don't come up with those things on the spot, right? You clearly, I think some people do. Some people maybe do. Some people do. I suspect that he probably sat at home and was like, what's the great, you know, because that's two. I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. That's exactly the kind of thing that we've come to me in the moment, not that as good as that. Yeah. But there's also, there's also something like, I don't know, indecisive, impromptu in the moment about saying things like that. Yeah. But I think he's clearly like, very good at using these sorts of moments to make points et cetera. Okay, but that's Brian Kluff. Yeah. Okay, so we just, we just, we just said the boys are back at the outside of the hotel. It's the next morning. It's on his walk and Danny Taylor was just written. It doesn't feel like an exaggeration to say that this is the kind of story that should probably be tended to into a film and the beginning of a relationship of Craig that has shaped his entire life and picking up from there, a relationship crazy as it sounds that led him to being taken in by the Kluff family, living under their roof as one of their own. Brian, Barbara, their sons Nigel and Simon and daughter Elizabeth and Craig, a sixth unofficial member of the family, saved from a difficult, often traumatic childhood at a time in his life when he badly needed some direction and guidance. The strangest thing, perhaps, is that a library's worth of books has been written about Kluff and none tell this story. Kluff wrote two autobiographies and spent virtually his entire career as the most quotable man in the business, yet you won't find a single word from him talking about what you're going to read here. Some things, plainly, mattered more to him than publicity or self-promotion, which tells you a lot about the man when, at the heart of it, lies some extraordinary kindness, not just from Kluff, but his entire family. Yes, sir? I've just made a note here, which just strikes me, but I guess it's this idea that what we're going to go on to see is that, essentially, Kluff is going to take one of these kids into his family for a few years because this kid is going to go through hard times in his own family. I think what strikes me about so much of this story is just how matter of fact it is. He sees a need and there's like, we have a solution to that need, so we're going to make those two things work and they just get on with it, and it just seems so countercultural in many respects to so many. I don't know. I assume it was countercultural at the time, but there are some quotes later on that do suggest that some of the players think it's not what Kluff suggests should be done, but... Yeah, it's kind of remarkable. I mean, and maybe that's just natural because of things have come in to stop these sorts of things from happening because too many people use and abused other children in these sorts of situations, right? But I suppose that's gone by the wayside, but this definitely does strike me as being like part of that altruistic and genuinely, I mean, altruistic even feels too pious and weak for this. It's like, it's actually just someone going out of the way and saying, I'm willing to welcome you into our family. That's a massive thing to do. I don't think I could do that to a kid off the street, who's, if I had a family and just be like, yeah, you know, just tag along and we'll look after you. That's an incredibly hard thing to go through and I think it's worth... I don't know. I guess it's worth celebrating, despite the complexities and there are plenty of complexities when it comes to Kluff that he could do something like that. I've always thought that about you that you would just leave a kid on the street. I know that's a be true of you. Not me, I'd do it in a heartbeat, I'd do it in a heartbeat, you know. Okay, picking up. It is some story though and it certainly isn't easy for Craig all these years on to explain how he could go from asking for spare pennies on the street corner, living in an area where the poverty could make you weep to moving in with the most famous manager in football. Though, maybe it helped going back to their first encounter outside Seaburn that he made sure to refer to Mr. Kluff when he inquired whether Swayne was awake too. Craig was a year out of primary school, small for his age with buck teeth, fluffy hair and failing eyesight. Aaron had big brown eyes and a sun rise of a smile. And if there was one thing that Kluff always appreciated, it was good manners. Now I can't do the accents, I'm just going to read the quotes straight, okay? Okay. Here we go. This is a Kluff now talking in quotes, he says. Have you two toe rags had any breakfast yet? Where's your coats? You'll catch your bloody death. What's your mom doing sending you out like that? Now come inside. Hurry up before I change my mind. Yeah, it just sounded inherently wrong in your eyes. It doesn't count by itself. Maybe you should do in your own accent, you should do the future Kluff quotes. Maybe. For two boys from what I'm going to call Sothek, John, it's spelled Southwick but I assume it's Sothek. Sothek, yeah. Let's call it Sothek. For two boys from Sothek, walking through seaburns revolving doors was like setting foot in a different world. Sothek on the north banks of the river Weir was a hard-faced place to grow up in the 1980s, a quote, shit hole to use Craig's description. Yes, John. My quote here is on the, the doc is interested to hear how Joe says shit hole. Shit hole. Because you said shit hole. Did I? Yeah, shit hole. Yeah. It's because I'm really emphasising how shit the whole. Right. You can't say this word unless you say shit hole. A shit hole. A shit hole. You have to say shit hole. A shit hole. What are you saying? A shit hole. A shit hole. It's a shit hole. It's a shit hole. And you've got a shit hole. It is a shit hole. I can't say that. This hole is shit. It's a shit hole. Anyway, what I was thinking at that moment is that I don't know anyone from the UK who lives anywhere that they wouldn't describe as a shit hole. With the exception maybe of Alex Stewart who lives in the lovely, I can't remember the name of the town. He lives in Winchester. He lives in lovely Winchester and he likes it down there. But I honestly don't not try to know anyone else who doesn't live in a shit hole. It's almost a kind of a badge of pride to say the name of it. Yeah, it is just like when you can insult your family but then if anyone else insults them, you're like, wait a minute, don't go too far. That's true. That's true. Even my flat, I live in a nice, I'm lucky to live in a nice area, John. But if you go really deep into my flat, you'll find my desk and that's a shit hole. I live in a shit hole. It's just very localised exactly. Okay, so that was Craig's description of Southern a shit hole. They positively, they positively upmarket compared to their old place in Barkley Court and they're now demolished slums where his first memories were of quote, our Joanne, his sister crying cockroaches and darkness, but not much else. You make me say how much she was crying cockroaches and darkness. That is what it sounded like. It was crying, comma, cockroaches and darkness, but not much else. Their dad, a Jamaican Jordi, named Gerald, was a professional signwriter, but he had a reputation. He was a hard man who used to shine his muscles with olive oil for added effects. He was also a thief, a low-level drug dealer and a magnet for trouble in a deprived area, selling bags of cannabis. He had a temper and when he came home drunk or in a bad mood, even sometimes if he'd lost a game of pool at the transport club, he regularly used to hand out beatings. Quote, never us, Craig says, but several shades out of our mum and for the smallest of reasons like bones in his fish or his egg and tomato sandwiches being soggy, or if she hadn't been able to sell enough brass off the walls to our neighbours so he could have a decent night out. He was their dad, well strictly speaking Craig's stepdad and they loved him. Even when they had to spend time in children's homes or a refuge against domestic violence they still loved him. But it wasn't a particularly happy childhood growing up in a cramped terrace house, two adults, four kids, two Alsatians, with not enough money for toilet paper sometimes, one set of clothes to last an entire week and virtually no belongings. The more than once the electricity was cut off because they hadn't paid their bills, the water too, Jim McNally, forests right back at the time, remembers Craig and Aaron, as quote two filthy kids, grubby little scallywags who looked like they hadn't been near water in years. And perhaps cloth saw that too, maybe they reminded him of boys from his own childhood in Middlesbrough. Or as you told the pair later, perhaps it was because he thought they relaxed the players with their northeast accents and their boyish innocence. Just a correction, we said something it was Middlesbrough. It was Middlesbrough yeah. I'm given to believe they're the same though. That's right. Shit holes. Shit holes. Yeah, just like everywhere else in Britain and to be clear, I am joking. Although I knew a man named Middlesbrough Steve once who told me a very funny story about the nuclear power plant. I don't think I can repeat it here, but as you call Middlesbrough Steve because he was from Middlesbrough. Yes, that's why. And his name was Steve. Whatever it was, cloth invited them in for breakfast and once they'd finished eating, he wanted to know if they liked football. It was Kenny Swain who told us, Craig says, he said the Gaffer had said it was okay if we wanted to go to the game. They would take us on the team bus and get us tickets. I didn't know who the Gaffer was. All I could think was the TV series with the big fat guy in brackets Bill Maynard, who starred in an early 1980s sitcom with that title. But there was no way we were going to say no, end quote, yes John. This is a very peculiarly British football phenomenon, right, calling the manager Gaffer. Yeah. Do you have any idea what that is? No, do you know? No, I don't. Actually, I was going to look this up, but I didn't have time. Let me have a look now. The etymology of the term Gaffer. Yeah. There must be something else. The only other thing is we have Gaffer tape, which is a type of tape. Yeah. So according to Google AI overview, which I know you always love. Well, no, I don't love it. And in fact, I often say we know it can be wrong, but yeah, go on. Gaffer is an informal British term for football team's manager, head coach or boss, signifying high respect and authority often used since the 1970s, originating from the 16th century English term for a foreman or old man, it implies the person in charge, a foreman, a foreman sorry. OK, a foreman has been in a factory, yeah, I guess, or an old man. Yeah, I guess. It doesn't really tell us the etymology of the word, does it? It just tells us when it started to be used, to be used, yeah. OK. So maybe there was the leaders role in tactics and management, I don't know if that's true. It'd have been something specific about the factory then that there was a gaffer element to the factory. Yeah. A gaffer is the name of Sam's father in law of the rings, do you know that's true? My old gaffer. Yeah, there you go. That's true. Gaffer Gamji. Yeah. He was also a big look at the Hobbits football team though, so it's difficult to know which came first. They wouldn't be very good. The Hobbits football certainly in the modern premier league environment, they only played under 12s. Yeah. That's true. A quick look at the Oxford English dictionary reveals that it may be derived from Goodfellow, a term that was used for people who weren't entitled to be called master, and was used as a term of respect in rural communities. So they weren't entitled to be called master because of the... Because they weren't entitled, I guess. Literally titled. Literally titled. Yeah. But they had some sense of seniority. Yeah. Wow. The gaffer. I think in Europe, they say mister, don't they? They do say mister. Instead of gaffer, which is funny, right? Because like mister just seems so like... The mister. Cockney Dickens sort of. Yeah. Oh, I missed that. Oh, I missed it. You want your boots shining? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Max Downman. Does Max Downman want his boots shining? Have you ever heard of gaffer, by the way, though, to sit common in the 1980s? No. There's so much stuff that comes out of this, like culturally, I'm just like... No, I do. No idea. All these things happen. Yeah. I've never heard of that. So we just finished a bit where there was a quote of Craig saying, yeah, he wanted to go to the football he had no idea who the gaffer was, though. Now, if the adventure was to end there, it would still have been a great story. Not many boys at age could boast that they'd dined with Brian Cluff, or that he'd let them travel on the team bus. The game finished one all, and the boys watched from the stands at St James's Park, risking hypothermia in their t-shirts, frozen to the bone. The next morning, Craig sent a postcard to Cluff to say thank you, and within a few days, a letter came back with a nottingham postmark. Cluff told them to work hard at school, to look after their mum, and to come and watch Forrest again sometime. It was typed by Cluff's secretary, Carol, but signed by the manager with his favourite pay-off. Be good. That's a funny way of ending up letters, isn't it? I might start doing that in my slack messages to you, you know. Just to let you know, I've booked you in for the TV and Pogos on Wednesday, be good. Very intentional. Okay. Where the Cluff imagined that his new acquaintances would be waiting for him outside Roca Park when Forrest took on Sunderland in the league cup a few weeks later, was another matter. But his paternal instincts quickly kicked in when he saw the boys. I was bullied at school, Craig says, I was an easy target, my dad was black, my brother was mixed race, and I was a scruff with big teeth. The bullies were outside the ground, there were ten of them, all older than me, buying people spare tickets, so they could sell them on for a profit. End quote. And what happened next provided the first real insight into Cluff's precious magic. Quote, I told Brian and he marched over. He gave them a couple of spare tickets, but hey, if you go near this young man again, I'll hear about it. Then he walked us into the ground, arm in arm. He had this lovely habit where he used to link arms, as if to say, they're with me. And those lads never bullied me again. End quote. Yes, John. It's just another example of him, I think, realizing that he's, you know, we talked about before his ability to realize how he could wield power, but I think he also realizes when he can use it for good as well, and it's just quite a nice example of that, right? I really like the fact that he doesn't seem to shout at the other kids. He gives them tickets to the game and then uses that to his advantage for Craig's brother here, or Aaron, right? Or so. Which is quite interesting, because I'm thinking of like, you know, every time I flick through Netflix and I get clips from random films that I've never seen, you know, you know, sort of low budget movies that have incredibly basic plots. It's always like an American dad and his, like, you know, his son with a learning disability is like, is bullied by someone at school and then he goes in and murders everyone in the school. And you watch it and you know that the filmmaker's intention is to say, like, yeah, this dad is cool or something, right? So my expectation is that in this instance, Brian Kluff will go over and shout at the kids and say, scram, scram, children, but he doesn't do that. He gives them tickets to the game, presumably because he is a complex character. He also understands there's a reason that they're doing some bullying and it's probably not coming from a good place, right? There's a lot of films like that on Netflix. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I said Netflix, I meant TikTok. Okay, right. Then you know when you're swiping through and you get a clip of a random thing and then the comments are just people saying, what, what film, what film and then people answering. I think there's a sort of, I assume it's, I've never spoken to anyone about this out loud before, but I see it so regularly is that there's like a common meme, I think, of answering those questions with the incorrect answer for fun, just for trolley. So I always see people saying the ring when you, when someone asks what film and then I assume that one or two people will then go and watch the ring before realizing that is not the film that they were watching on TikTok. And in fact, they're now terrified. I think my favourite film reference that I said in your recent, he was, was it Spider-Man 2? That was the entirety of the film played at speed, I didn't get it. Yes, I remember that. This is because we have an ongoing conversation about the fact that you watch films at two times speed. It's a joke. I don't think you actually do that. But you do listen to podcast at two times speed and that's absolutely insane to me. Also. If you're listening to this at normal speed, what Joe said at two times speed was, sometimes I like to say things incredibly quickly so that people who are listening at two times speed have to slow down a little bit of what I'm saying. Because that was four times, that was four times speed right there. And now two times speed people go. I saw a guy who was doing something at the Soho theatre, a comedian, and then he recorded his promo for it backwards, but like was doing the speaking and it was incredibly, he had like a printer attached to him, was like printing out sheets. That's cool. And then did it all backwards. So yeah, it sounded very funny, but you know, I mean, we all make fun of Chris Martin of Coldplay, but he learns to do that for the music video for the scientist. And I thought, well, you've put a lot of time into that Chris, you know, presumably for efforts. Presumably he just recorded it, the records, they, they, they, he wasn't, he was just lip syncing. He was, he was just lip syncing. He just learned the lip sync. Well, yeah. But that is the same as saying it. It's not there isn't because it's like, I think if you recorded him singing it backwards and then played it forwards, it would be like, which one was it, the scientist? Yeah. So it would be like, you sounded like that. Maybe it would have done. Yeah. They've just been marched into the into the ground and, and Klauff has dealt with that bullying situation. We pick up later. The following January, Forest returned to Newcastle in the FA Cup, and the two boys were waiting again. That was the first time that Klauff invited them to watch the match beside him. Quote, Aaron was spat at and told to fuck off home. On the walk to the dugout, Craig says, the northeast wasn't exactly the nicest place to grow up if you weren't white. It was horrible, but amazing at the same time. Being alongside Brian Klauff, somehow you knew that you were safe. End quote. A relationship was building. When the team went back to Newcastle in October 1985, almost a year to the day since Klauff walked into their lives, the boys were allowed into the dressing room. Yes, John. October 1985. Yeah. A very monumentous month. Is that when you were born? The month I was born. Oh, good Lord. Thank you. And there's that the reason it was monumentous. That's how old it is. Yeah. It's a story. It's 40 years ago. It was happening. Are you 40? Of course you are. Are you 46 this year? No, 41. 40. No, 40. No. Yeah, 41 this year. 41 is quite scary, isn't it? Yeah. That's far too old. That's what's weird. I think as soon as you become part of history, then it changes as a story for you, doesn't it? Like if you were talking about that. Do you feel as if the story's changed for you? Yeah, immediately. Like when we were talking about the gunpowder plot, it's like, yeah. That's ancient history. Yeah. But then it's like, yeah, all of these TV shows were happening and I'm like, no, I'm doing it. I was there. You were there. From here on in. Before. Not. Yeah, yeah. Just to get the time. So now John's born. Forrest won 3-0 and Cluff knelt down afterwards to take off the player's boots as he often did when he thought they'd given everything. Quote. He sat on the dressing room benches, Craig says. He had his back to the wall, arms folded, feet up, legs crossed. And he turned to me and Aaron and asked the question that with no exaggeration changed our lives. You two still off school. Well, I tell you what, I bet your mum would give, would give her I would give her I. I've literally got a comment. You've got a comment. I have no idea what this is. So let me just finish this quote. The quote is, I bet your mum would give her I teeth to get rid of you for a few days. Why don't we give her a ring and you can stay with us, get some fresh air and get you fed. Scotsman, get their man on the phone, tell her if it's okay with her. They're coming for a holiday. Okay. We'll deal with Scotsman in a moment. What, what are I teeth? Have you got this up? Yeah. I've looked this up. I teeth is a common nickname for the upper canine teeth, the cospids. Those are the teeth that are directly below your eyes. So I guess I guess the line's the pointies. Well, it's any of the front teeth, I guess. So if you lost one of those teeth, it would be pretty noticeable, I guess. Right. So you say she'd give her I teeth. Give her valuable teeth. Right. A tooth that would change the aesthetic appeal of her face. That's right. Yeah. That's how much she wished to. Okay. The jettison her children to Brian Kluff. Okay. Now, picking up, we'll answer Scotsman. Scotsman turned out to be Mac and Allie, and although the family didn't have a phone, they did have an arrangement with their neighbors in times of emergency. This, according to the boys, was one such time. Mac and Allie dialed the number from a pay phone, quote, and while we waited for the neighbors, Mr and Mrs. Panuk, to knock next door, Jim made it clear that he would rather not be wasting everyone's time. Craig says, he was trying not to swear. Surely your mark can't agree to this. She has no clue where you're going. The gaffer is daft, even asking me to do this. He said, yes, John. I was just made a note here that it's like, the past is a strange place, but it's nice to know that even back then, this is a weird thing to do. Yeah, adults thought, this seems crazy. This seems crazy. That is the idea. Yeah, like a random, strange man, even albeit a famous one, just offering to take children away. It still requires for your parents to know, like these boys clearly weren't into football if they thought forest were a basketball team. So presumably their mom doesn't know who. It seems so. Brian Kloffis. Well, and Danny Taylor agrees, because he writes, it was daft in the extreme. You missed a paragraph, though. Oh, I missed a paragraph, though. Still does agree. He does say that. I'll get back to that again. Yeah. And of course, it was daft. That's Danny Taylor. That's also Danny Taylor. And Nelly didn't even know her name. And vice versa, she was answering the phone to a stranger with a glass wager accent. Yet he wanted to pass it on that Brian Kloff, yes, Brian Kloff, had asked if her boys fancied staying at his place 150 miles away. No more details than that, really. But Brian had said not to worry, and that he would make sure they got home safely. It was daft in the extreme. There it is. Quote, Jim hangs up. Craig recalls. And then he turns to us. Hey, Lads, your master shall miss you, but have a good time. Dinkus. Now, as a reminder, dinkus is a separation between the two. Have a good time, dinkus. Have a good time, dinkus. Dinkus is a separation between one section and another. Dinkus would be a cool nickname, wouldn't it? Dink, well, I think maybe I can start calling you dinkus. Yeah. It suits you in some ways. You think? I feel as though one has to be bald to be called dinkus. It's, when it's an onomatopoeic sound, I think if you had hair, you couldn't make the dink sound. It's like Linus in, is it Snoopy, Peanuts? He's bald, isn't he? I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. I'm just dinkus. Anyway, there we go. Okay, so that was his little team talk. For Craig, it can feel surreal to recall the scene. Quote, the house looked like something that you would see in US TV soap Dallas. It was so big and white. Everything was so beautiful. The garden was the most beautiful garden I'd ever seen. The house had the loveliest, fluffiest green carpet I'd ever seen. There was ivy growing up the walls. Even the walk up the drive was special. We walked through the door and it was like a different universe. And that's where we're going to call it a day for today's episode. This is, as I said at the beginning, this is a two-parter and we will return next week on Ring for Analysis to finish the story. Now, if you are desperate to finish the story, you can. This is published on the athletics. So if you're a subscriber, you can finish it ahead of next week's episode. What I do because the athletics internal search function is so broken. What I do is I search on Google for the thing I want. And it's easier to find that way. So into Google, I would search Daniel Taylor, I would search Brian Cluff and I would search the athletic and maybe kids, the word kids. I search for Aaron and Craig and got it. You got that as well. Okay, there you go, Aaron and Craig. So yeah, if you're desperate to finish this, still come back. You can still come back and listen to the episode next week because there's an awful lot of discursive analysis going on. As you could tell from today, John and I are trying to get to grips with AT's northern culture doing a fine job. But yeah, you can read that or you can wait for us to come back and finish the story next week. But we're actually going to carry on reading now in this room, which I'm excited about because I love this article. But thanks for this, John. Thank you. And we'll be back next week with the second half. See you next week. Bye.
