The Pochettino Paradox, Championship Pitfalls, and the MLS Vanguard: A USMNT Post-World Cup Audit

And welcome in to the latest edition of the Caller where you want podcasts also of course live on the Gullasa America YouTube channel alongside U.N. spends national team legends Charlie Davies and Tony Mjola. I'm Chris Winningham in for Jimmy Conrad this week. I am alerted that he is on vacation. They will deserve vacation after his work during the World Cup. What's up boys? We got a lot to get to over the course of this program. We're going to talk a lot about Mauricio Potsettino. We just kind of mentioned a little bit in our YouTube exclusive build up. Find it on the Gullasa America YouTube channel. We'll talk a lot about whether or not he is going to stay or is he going to go? What is the position of the national team coach mean going into the 2030 cycle? I'll also talk plenty about the transfer window. It's of course ongoing. The latest news involving a man's national team player is Sebastian Berhalter. He's reportedly on his way to Middlesbrough. That one is not yet officially confirmed, but all indications sending him to England. We'll talk a little bit about Major League Soccer in this aftermath of the World Cup here. We're seeing a lot of young players get their opportunities as well as some big stars featuring in the league with Robert Lewandowski, Antoine Griesman and the like, but also the national team stories of Kevin Sullivan and Frankie Westfield and Adry Mehmeti and all these great players just in Ellis for Orlando who are all featuring very well. Guys, very good to be with you and I guess we should continue our conversation. They were having in the pre show about Maurizio Potsettino. You guys were saying at this point, I think it's more likely than not that he won't be the manager of the national team going forward. I guess, where does that leave you feeling in terms of what the Potch experience was and where that vacancy now, if there is to be a vacancy in charge of the national team, would leave US Soccer needing answers? I'll start with you, Charlie. Yeah, I mean, it's a loaded question. Woody, by the way, I'm curious what your thoughts are on what's your teen years tenure and would you want to see him continue with the US national team, but there are a number of positives. I mean, it probably doesn't get worse in the way that he started with his US national team in terms of the hype with the nation's league and not even getting to a final and losing to Panama in that fashion. It felt like he didn't know the players and didn't know the opponents in the way that they were going to play. And so, you know, that backfires, and of course, you could say, well, the players didn't bring the quality. That's part of it. He reestablished what it means to represent the US national team. I think he brought the, hey, if you don't appreciate fighting for the badge, for the crest for your country and giving me your all in every, in every ounce and wanting to be here and that this is priority over anything, then you were pushed to the side. I love that because that's what it's always been. When you put on that US kid, you feel like Superman and you're proud. So I think from that standpoint, he got into the World Cup and it felt like all of all the ups and downs because there was a great run of friendly results into that March window which was a disaster, but you can maybe argue, maybe he learned some things in that. But the World Cup start could not have been better. That Paraguay match was sensational. Of course, we peaked in that first match, but it was incredible and it got the whole country behind this team. The excitement was there and it really started us off on a strong start in this World Cup. And again, that first match, we always talked about it, it sets the tone and he set the tone. However, the most important match of the World Cup against Belgium, they fell flat. So, he didn't really succeed in getting us past the level, the threshold that we've ever been before and he didn't even match that expectation. So I think from that standpoint, if we're just looking at numbers and finishes in the World Cup, he did not do the job. Yeah, so I'm caught in the middle in my head and I'm trying to figure this out, Chris. Did he show us some signs? No doubt. The reestablishing of what it means to be a national team player, we saw that, but sadly, we had to bring somebody to even talk about that. Because for me, when you put the national team jersey on, there's a reason you have it on and there's expectations. And the first thing is to give everything you have. Now, I know there's the narrative that players say, we gave everything we have all the time. That's ridiculous. And we've heard that. Timothy Weiss said that a couple times, Christian has said that a couple times. And I'm sure others, those are just the ones that we come to mind. But what he did was give them sort of an extra edge to the national team. Now, I say all good things because they lit up a country. We're excited about the team, 50 million plus, watch the team. People learned about who all these players were. They knew who Pochettino was. They knew who the opponents were. They got engaged in the World Cup. A lot of this has to do with Mauricio Pochettino and the work that he did. But also the work that was in the Belgium game also is part of what Mauricio Pochettino did. And then I, in doing a little deeper dive, I'm like, OK, in his tenure, there were ups and downs. And we can write some of it off where part of this, the March window that Charlie talks about, he was experimenting. We could go back and say he was experimenting with four in the back to see if it worked. And then we get to the World Cup and the pre-matches and we figure out, no, he learned from that. Now he goes here. And in the end, we could say everything went good. We could put all the good in this bucket and all the bad in this bucket. We lost him around the 16. That's what happened. That's the reality is we lost in the round of 16. So is it any better? Is it any better team really that you played? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I actually thought Paraguay was better. We just made them look poor in that first game. But I have a question for you, I have a question for you both. Did that Belgium team that we lost to in the round of 16 better than the Dutch, the Dutch team we lost to in the round of 16 in 2022? No. No. No. And we are a better team than we were in 2022. Theoretically. Right. We felt flat on our faces in that game, right? And it was, we had note for me, again, an opinion. We had no indication over the first four games of that that we were going to have such a distinker in the fifth game, right? Yeah. We had reason to believe that the performance would look different than it did in the fifth game. And good reason to believe. We were like, we finally, these guys, I don't know if we played that game 10 times, that we played that poorly the other nine times. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it could have just been a bad day. And that's such a difficult part of analyzing all this Tony is that you're doing this off such small samples, even I mean, we talked about it yesterday, the idea of all Copa Americas and gold cups and nations leagues and all the other games at the US play. It ultimately comes down to the world cup and you're analyzing 90 minutes of play. And it could just be they had a bad day. It could be the external pressure got to them. It could be all these other things that might have affected the performance. But in the end, it's 90 minutes. It's the round that you always get to when you didn't get past it. And that was the goal of this world cup of hosting it here. I think in the overall, I come down on the perspective of I would continue with punch. If I felt you were committed. And I think that's the number one thing that I felt even in the 20 months that he's been in charge of the national team is kind of always felt and you mentioned it, Charlie, the idea of living in London, the idea of, you know, not really being fully committed. I mean, I believe that at the world cup, the only thing that he was thinking about was managing the US of the world cup. But two weeks before, there's a rumor that gets out that you're interviewing for the Milan position already. And that for me suggests that the likelihood of him being the national team coach in 2030 is diminimous. I really believe that unless the US Soccer Federation, unless the donors that donated to a salary the first time donated some astronomical amount of money to keep him around for four years, I still even think that you get him linked into other jobs. In my view, I think the national team should be a position that people are incredibly committed to. You know, you can say whatever you want about Greg Borholtz, about Bob Bradley, about Bruce Serena. And I'm not just saying that, you know, foreigners are the ones who are not, I think your conclinstment was incredibly committed to the job. I don't think he was looking for jobs elsewhere. But I think the one problem that you would have, either if it is Parchitino or somebody else who is in the elite class of managers who have managed in the elite parts of the European game, there's always going to be links, especially when this job, I think now it becomes more like an ordinary national team job, then the special job that you have because the World Cup is going to be held in the US unless it's going to be held somewhere else. I'll just say this, unless you're a Jürgen Club, and I think Germany struck gold because he's on the back end of his career where he said, I'm done with the day to day. But if you're telling me, poor, my heart and soul, this is a passion job, this is a priority, this is everything I love about Germany, I'm in it. By the way, if you come at me or my family, I'm out, I'm doing this because I love Germany. It's also his country too, and there is a big project as well of trying to overturn German football who have been in really hard times since they won the thing in 2014, but it's his country. You have to worry about commitment. You have to worry about the Manchester United job, but the Real Madrid Cup job came open. Jürgen Club is going to be the manager, no matter what. Zenedin Zedan is going to be the manager of France, no matter what. And I also think there's a difference between having a job where you feel like you can win. Like Carlo Wanchilotti is probably not leading Brazil, leaving Brazil because he thinks he can win with Brazil, either the Cup America or the next World Cup. So I think you have to have someone that's committed, but that's such a fine line, Tony, between finding someone who people think is an elevation or is the next level or is a high level coach, and someone who you think will be there for 2030. So we're like bad guys to talk to about this, right? Because the fact that you have to say, okay, to anybody, this is not exclusive to Mauritio Pogetino, right? So just so I'm clear on that, you have to say to anybody, hey, I want you to coach my national team, but I need you to be really committed. I need you to be sold 100% like, please don't leave. Yeah, I like, I just, and you mentioned the links to Milan at one point, right? And who knows what happened? I think it was his agents, right? They might have conversations with them. Whatever happened, there was a link to Milan at that point. Think about, we were up in arms about it. I mean, when I say we, I mean, the general public, I think here we were, we were committed to, hey, you have a big name. You're always going to be linked, but don't think that that's the only team that contacted Mauritio Pogetino over a year and a half, and don't think that if he signed tomorrow, we find out that he's the guy that every job, everyone says, oh, well, there's no jobs open right now. This is world football. There's going to be a job open next month. And then two months from now, there's going to be another job. And three months from now, there's going to be another job. This is what the game is, right? So he's going to be linked to that. And by the way, he should be linked to all of those jobs. He, he earned the right to be linked to all the, so that's what you got to live with. We have to figure out is, if, if is Mauritio Pogetino, the right guy for us, based on everything, his knowledge, what he did, what he built with the team, his commitment, all of this stuff. And, and I'm not quite sure that he would be committed to the point where, and I'm with you, Chris, World Cup. He was leaving that world cup. He was 100% committed. The Milan thing didn't bug me. One thing, nor did I flinch at it, think about it, nothing. He was committed for me. But do we want to do this for four years? I don't know. I don't know that we're ready to do it for four years. And, and just so I'm clear on the record, because I've told you guys off the record, I don't need it to be a foreign coach. I needed to be the best coach for this team. Whoever it is that's going to get the group to the next level, the people that are hired to make the decision for the, whoever it is, with Pogetino, the next guy, their job is to find the next guy to get them to the next level. For me, I don't care if he's American, Argentinian, but do you think there, but do you think there's an American Tony that that would qualify to be the best coach to this group? I say, yeah, and you're going to go, okay, well, who is it? I have no idea it is. You got to look and see, you got to look and see. Look, there were about the higher Peter Verme's a couple years ago. Well, if you want someone to get up your backside and motivate you, we'll go higher. Somebody like that. I'm not suggesting that I'm giving you examples, right? I don't know who the guy is. If you think BJ Callahan is the guy, so what? He's American. If you think he's the right guy, you go hire him. You do whatever it is you need to do to get the team to the next level, right? But you're, yes, yeah, for sure. But I guess my question would be, Charlie, is that do we think the coaches, the person that's getting the team to the next level? Because if we're saying that, you know, Greg Berholtz in 2022 took the program to a certain place. A lot of people were not satisfied with that place. We needed a higher level manager. You go and get Maritzi Potsettino. That is in every perception, a higher level manager. And you go out in the same stage of the tournament. It's the answer of coach or is the answer the development, either internally in the current players or of more better players than what you currently have? It's a combination. It cannot be all on the coach and that certainly cannot be all on the player. So so in terms of what Potsettino brought in was brought in for, it was to get results in the World Cup. Nothing else. There was no four year plan. There wasn't a, oh, let me think about the next cycle when Greg Berholtz or came in, his job was, let me just qualify this young group who basically we are, we are cutting out all the, the, the excess players who maybe had touched with the US national team before, given the failures of 2018 World Cup. We are going to go in a whole new direction and I'm going to be the coach that gets this group to a World Cup and then prepares them for the home World Cup. So that was, it was more of an eight year plan versus a four year plan, right? And so for me, Greg Berholtz or did an incredible job of getting those guys ready because I saw some of the failures in the World Cup qualifying away from home. They, they were learning on the fly. Walter did an incredible job. Yes. Yeah, there, no, there are a lot of people. I agree with you, but there are a lot of people who would think, that's, that's terrible. Oh, you know, cycle one you're talking about, right? Yeah, incredible. That's what I'm talking about. We're talking about a team with zero international experience. Kids putting in them out with the, the first team international guys with a lot of experience. And we all know how difficult conquer cafes get through World Cup qualifying cycle and get to a World Cup. And by the way, get out of their group. For me, job well done. Now, the second cycle is completely different. I don't think he should have continued on that second cycle, even though that was the, the plan because the, the, the, the Copa America was too big of a failure. And then just kind of how things unfolded post World Cup in Qatar. So given that, you, you bring in Puchotino late. And the only, the sole reason to get Puchotino, by the way, Matt Crocker was at the head of that was to get results and go further than you've ever done. And that's by getting the best coach, quote, unquote. They did that. Now, the, the, the players more so fell flat than, I would say, coaching tactics in, in, in this case, because we, the players can even complete five-year passes, not under pressure. It has nothing to do with tactics. And, and that was flat. That was universal across the squad. But in terms of now, you want to coach who can, if you're talking about a Guardiola or a club, they want to revolutionize the whole system. And we're talking about from making sure that the youth team is, is set up to produce for the first team down the road. Whoever that first team coaches, do you want him to just focus on the national team that he has? Or do you want him to have a real impact and input on youth national team schedules, coaches, development, scouting, all of the above? I think it depends who that coach is. If you told me BJ Callahan, then he's only focusing on the national team. He doesn't have that pedigree to say, hey, let me change everything because I've been there and done it and have had success at the highest level. I'm not sure which direction they're going to go in. I love the idea of Pellegrino Matarato, right? And that's a name that everyone's like, oh, coaches, Real Sociedad. And just one, a big cup title, right? In Copa de Ré in Spain. But he just got to Real Sociedad. He's not leaving anytime soon. Although he's talked about, yeah, he'd like to coach the US national team one day. When you start, no, when you finally cut through and you're, you want to go? You're not going to go back. You want to continue the process. So I just hope whoever we get has a clear idea on what they're going to do to get the most out of his tenure with the job. Tony, I mean, look, there's a class of coach, which you could basically call the MLS class of coach, which is your BJ Callahan's even Steve Shorundolo, who is currently named the Olympic national team job, which I thought was sort of interesting timing to have named him then. Even more for Nancy, who I think had some good will before things went wrong for him at Celtic. And then you sort of go to that sort of next year, where you talk about Julian Nagosman, who is available as a national team coach. I guess you can even talk about Roberto Martinez, although I think as a coach, has improved, you know, really a great deal more. These are the list of candidates. I guess the question would be is that in order to get Pochettino, there was a group of donors led by Ken Griffin and Scott Goodwin, who were there to give the Federation millions of dollars to go and get Pochettino because they felt it was worthwhile. Do you think that is required again here to go and get that next level coach to commit to the national team for the next four years? Are you saying that, you know, the pool of internal candidates is good enough? Or do you think that US ockers have to go and find funding and find donors again to find a national team coach for the next four years? Well, coming out of a world cup, right, with the windfall of money, I'd be surprised if we had to go out and find donors again to do it. It's, I feel like if you're going to buy a house, right? You, everyone wants a five million dollar house, but if you don't have five million dollars to pay for, what do you do? You buy a house for 500 grand, right? And you've got to live with it. You've got to fix it up and you've got to make it nice. You've got to make it the way you want it. Like, what are we doing here? Like, I feel like we're, I always feel like we're always, this is a frustrating for me. I always feel like we're trying to reinvent the wheel every, every four years. Yeah, that's what is that, is that not because the results are good enough? I don't, I don't think that's, that's necessarily a bad frustration. We lost the game, the Belgium, right? We lost the game, the Belgium, where 10 players had poor performances. I don't think it's, it's emblematic of where we are as a national team. You just said we judged the whole thing on 90 minutes. Okay, I get it. Where it's a result-based business. But again, I'm not the guy who blows it up every four years. I'm not the guy who goes four years, pay to play, system sucks. We don't develop kids. It's just not me. Right, yeah. I've been around too long to understand this. You understand that? Same thing in 2018. We lost the chart, you know, losing the turn it at away from home. That was, that coaching, bad playing, you know, you know, you could, you could go in and say, hey, we're going to take a microscope and go, all right, where are all the issues and flaws across the United States in this massive country where we are falling short. We're falling short in every aspect, if you're saying, with the resources we have, with, with the amount of players that play, yeah, we're falling short in a lot of cases. Should we have been turning it on that day without a doubt? You know, and that, that's a 90 minute, you know, performance where you go. Is that really where we are? No, but I guess, no. But Tony, to your sort of point, and you were sort of going on, I'm not the guy who blows it up. Do you understand why people are sort of in that blow it up, mode- Yeah, because they're irrational. You're irrational when you do that. Eight teams have won the World Cup. Eight teams have won the World Cup. And by the way, if we, if we want to go along those lines, no foreign managers ever won the World Cup still, right? So if you're, if your dream is to be one of the eight teams right now, it makes no sense to hire a foreign coach. But then people go, well, we don't have enough American coaches. So what, what do you want? What do you want exactly? So your point about six, six million, I'm going to go on sort of my analogy with the houses and that sort of, if you're, if you're a federation and you have to essentially borrow six million, right? Because that's what you, I don't know, you're borrowing, you're, you're borrowing, you're asking, whatever, I don't know if they have to pay it back, I have no idea, right? And that means you don't have it, right? Which means you're taking money away from something else, right? Because you want to buy a car, you got to take money from something else that you want to buy, right? And we're, we're spending six million. How about we keep talking about the youth development and why don't we put the money there? Why aren't we raising money for that, right? Like this is what frustrates me about all of this. Like for me, I'm like, I'm like a hamster spinning on the wheel all the time when I think about this. But, but I'm curious Tony, because going back to 1990 when you guys qualified for the World Cup in Italy, but in 94 biggest tournament, you guys go to Bora, right? And that's an international manager. Do you think there's an American coach that could have gotten you to that point where you guys were, because in my mind, there's no shot that an American coach could have prepared you in 94 for 94, yeah. In 94, no, I don't think, but yeah, there was no, I didn't have to go back. There were other, there were qualified guys that were really good coaches, but no one that would have done that would have given us the credibility that Bora gave us like from the jump, right? Like right from the start that everyone would have latched on to. And then who had the guts to convince US soccer that the guys that weren't playing overseas needed a place to play, you got to find the money to go put these guys in residency. Like no one, if an American would have told US soccer that, they would have said, you're crazy. You know, we're going to fire you and bring the next guy in. I just, I look at it and that's a completely different scenario than what you're now. We got coaches that that going all around the coaching schools were supposed to have some of the best coaching schools in the world. All these guys got their licenses. They're all coaching years in, in, in MLS and, and cutting their teeth and all of that. They're coaching at youth national teams. They're coaching overseas. Like our coaches are at a completely different level than we were in 1994. But I'm saying my point is the right coach for the group, right? So given where that team is, given what the coach brings to a group, it doesn't necessarily mean, if they're American or not, but it's for me, in this context, what type of coach would get the most out of this current group right now? And I think it was the same thing for, for this team in 2026 is that a foreign manager who had credibility could get the most out of them. And he did up into the point where you were expecting him to cross that line, right? Yeah. So how do we, how do we square that in your head? Like that everyone's going to have a different level of how they square that in her head. For me personally, I think we could have gotten there with other coaches. Not that we needed another coach right now, but he didn't, he didn't take me to another level. We didn't go to another level in this thing. If you want to hire him again, like we're now going to hope that in in 2030, he's going to get us to the next level of the competition. That's your hope. You're going to have to pay an awful lot to get there, right? And I don't know that it's worth it for me personally. All right. Well, this is a fascinating conversation. And obviously Pashtino's future will be determined sometime soon. We hope certainly as the host of this podcast, we hope that is determined so we can get on with the future of things. But coming up next, obviously the player pool is such a big part of everything surrounding the US men's national team. And some of those players are making big decisions about transfers, including Sebastian Burhol to forget his decision to go to borough next year on Callaway you want. This is Callaway you want next season on Paramount Plus. You can watch the UEFA Champions League in all the games starting August the 27th with a league phase draw that league phase begins on September the 8th. The tournament goes to the knockouts on February the 17th. And the final is in Madrid at the Estadio Metropolitano on June the 5th. You can watch many of the players who dazzle us at the 2026 World Cup in the UEFA Champions League next season on Paramount Plus. That is very close to now. We're also in playoffs right now. I was getting some full-time results of playoff games that are going on right now. Some really good stories in the qualification period. But guys, we want to talk about some of the transfer goings on for some of the players. And we have to start with Sebastian Burholter. He had six months left on his deal at Vancouver White Caps. He had very clearly stated that he was going to make a move at some point. Reports suggesting that as many as 10 clubs were in for the services of Sebastian Burholter, but he decides to go to Middlesbrough who are currently in the championship. As of recording, they are fourth favorites to get promoted to the Premier League next season. But it is still a move to the championship. Charlie, you've had your thoughts about some US men's national team players moving to the championship. He is, of course, joining with former teammate Aiden Moritz. There's a suggestion that he could potentially be joined by another teammate. And Max Arvston, who also came through the Columbus crew set up at the same time. Columbus could potentially send Arvston there as well. There is also a deal in Melanda. So it's an MLS All-Star team at the form in there at Middlesbrough Charlie. Your thoughts on Burholter to Borough? You're muted. I'm not a fan of it. I am not a fan of this move at all. And if you could go back in time, Aiden Moritz, when they won MLS Cup with Columbus crew with Caleb Porter as the coach, was among the best American up-and-coming players in the league. He goes to Middlesbrough and he has not improved from what he was in MLS. And I go to Josh Chargent most recently in the championship. And the guy got team of the year. And then what? For me, it's not a league that you go to develop. And unless you're for some reason you're a young American, you're 16 or 17. You have a path for it. You can go over there and play and you're developing. But typically the championship is great for young English talent who are already at a big club in the Premier League and they're not going to get time and they get loaned there. It's a play against men and then they come back in their quality players. For an American player to go to the championship, most likely you are going to a team that's going to be fighting for promotion because that's the type of money it would take to sign you. But you get stuck in this every match every three days. You really don't get to train all that much and it's a fight. Now, if you do get promoted, typically you're coming right back down. And if you don't get promoted, the same thing happens that you're just fighting but in terms of growth, I'm not a fan of that league. I would prefer the best American talent to go over to Europe and play in a top division where you're competing to potentially play in Europe. We've seen what playing in the conference league or Europe league or in some cases, Champions League if you're going to a big team in a small country. But I'm not a big fan of the championship. And it's just not a great place for American players to develop. Now, that doesn't mean if you go there, you can't develop and you can't make it. But I think on average, I would prefer a player leaving MLS to go to a better situation in Europe and a top division. Give me an example of someone going to the championship, American player and benefiting them. I have to go through the full list of players. But I mean, I guess at one point, Tim Reem was a championship player, I suppose at one point. He would be the example. He went to full them and they're in the Premier League and they got relegated. So that's not the saying. Sure. I disagree with Charlie on this one. One, I watch Aiden Mars almost weekly. I think Aiden Mars has gotten better. But on Burr Halter, this for me, I would be interested in what we say like 10 teams potentially. I would be interested to know some of the other names of some of the teams to see what the options were. I think there's a feeling of getting to Europe in this case to a team that has a chance to get promoted to the Premier League, which would be a good chance for him to play in the Premier League, going to a place that he is familiar with somebody. And I don't think that's the end all with Aiden Mars. They did get rid of Hackney this year, which now looks like he can slide into that position. I think Hackney went to what Everton? Yeah, if I'm not mistaken. Okay. And you get, I don't want to say out of the MLS system. If he signs another contract in MLS, he's kind of married to MLS for a couple years, right? And in Sebastian Burr Halter's 25 years old, I think, right? So now he gets his chance to get into the European system. Where it leads from here? I don't know. But the guys rise over the last couple of what let's call it two years has been incredible from a point where he thought about giving up the game because he didn't know if he was going to make it to playing in a World Cup and now making a move to Europe, which forget the money thing because he's probably making more money. That middle's bro. I'm assuming that he did it made cooler. I don't know the logistics of the deal. But I think it's a stepping stone for him to see if he can get to the level Charlie that you're talking about because I don't think there was another level for him to get to and get himself one into the English system. Yeah, I think that's the biggest point, Tony. Is that you talk about Aiden Morris Charlie as kind of your example here? Is it possible that that's just Aiden Morris's level that he was never going to be, you know, on the level of a full national team starter next to Tyler Adams, who, you know, takes the role that Malik Tillman, I mean, Malik Tillman showed to be several levels above. I think what other players do. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that either because the way that this kid was playing when they won MLS Cup leaves me to believe that if you went to the right club, that would be help his develop it in a different way. Of course, I'm not going to sit here and say Aiden Morris hasn't gotten better. You go to Europe, you're naturally going to get better because the competition every day to play whereas I'm a less, you're guaranteed to play. Let's be honest, you're guaranteed to play for the most part. Training is not, is not guaranteeing who plays on the weekend in Europe. That's the case and it's the game and there's a lot of more, a lot more pressure in Europe. What I'm saying is like, you know, a great example is Patrick Gagemon. No matter where he went in Europe, he was going to improve because he's such a late bloomer. So, you know, whether it's a championship, whether he's playing in Portugal, whether he's playing, you know, if he was in the right situation and he's going to play, he was going to improve anywhere because he's such a late bloomer in his, in his, in his, in his process and fulfilling his potential. But what I'm, what I'm saying is if you told me, hey, you know, Aiden Morris is going to Brighton. And of course, that's a Premier League, maybe not the Premier League. Yeah, I think you're talking more like Union Senju was or, or something like that. Yeah, right. You know, Paris FC and going to Liga, you know, going to Syria and a lower team of Torino, a Parma, you know, a Gladbach, you know, somewhere where you're going to be playing in a top division, across the top five leagues, maybe it's not even a top five leagues. Let's say you go to Denmark and you play in the best Danish team, where you're still playing Champions League. For me, getting that elite competition in Europe, playing in Europa League or Champions League and balancing that out with a, with a schedule that you're not playing every three days, and you're getting quality training sessions, I just think that it would be more beneficial for a player like Aiden Morris and a player like Sebastian Burholter to, to go there and and fulfill their, their potential in a, in a different way. Tony, I want to, sorry, what was Haji right after he left the U.S., I know he played with the Cosmos here for a little bit. He went, I know, he went to, he went to Chalka, then, then he went to Turkey and, and he was at in Tallah's four, I believe it was, or, he's in, he's now made his way to the Premier League. Yeah, yeah, it just came to mind as you were talking him. He's got to play though. He's got to play in the Premier League, I guess is the question. I mean, we don't know what Coventry is going to do. We, we will see because I can tell you right now, he was wrote to, as much as, as he played last year in score goals, he did not play every game. Okay, then, then that's a good example, right, because you're playing, let's say, part time, not, not all the time, right, in Coventry. Now you go to the Premier League, so now you're in the top league in the world. You're going to get challenged every week, but what if he doesn't play? Right, he's just, he's just a richer Haji right at that point. Right. He's playing on a championship team that got promoted. So if he doesn't play, then what's the point of going on the championship? If you can't even, if you're not going to play, if you, if a team eventually moves up, which, which is not like they didn't depend on him, he scored goals at Coventry over the, what was he there? Two seasons, three seasons. Yeah, but my, but my point is, if you're an American playing in the championship, and now we got to sit here and question, if you're going to play, when your team gets promoted, when it, when everything actually goes well for you, is that the right league for you? But then, Charlie, but if you're, if we're also asking the question, if he is going to play, or is he good enough for the Premier League, then is he good enough for the USman's national team? Like, I guess that's my question, especially when we're talking about players in their mid-twenties, right? You are basically who you're going to be, unless you're 19, and you're going to Europe, that's one thing. We're talking about players that are in their mid-twenties. If you're not going to play in the Premier League, if you're, if you're a question about whether or not you're going to play in your high-level championship team, are we talking about national team level players then? Well, are you talking about the USman's national team then? Yes, yes, because there is no depth there. Well, we're talking about a player that is probably not going to raise your level or not going to find some new level by virtue of a club move. Well, well, then for, for those players, you're trying to make the most of your career by making the most money. You can, right. There's always strike in the balance of making the most money that you can possibly make with playing at the highest level. You can possibly play the biggest clubs. You can possibly play where the best leagues can possibly play. And at one point, every player realizes their true level. And at one point, every player knows that I have to make that decision because I'm not going to be a ballendor candidate. I'm not going to be a Champions League level player. I'm not going to be a Premier League level player. So would I rather start thinking about the backside of my career and maybe securing my future, at least for the foreseeable future? Or do I want to grind and risk end up with nothing? You know, risk not fulfilling the financial gains that I could have had. I made certain decisions. So, you know, for, for Hodgy, right, this is that moment for him. He's either going to get his opportunity under Frank Lampard and excel and prove to himself because we're all trying to prove to ourselves and prove to everyone else around me that I can do it. I can deliver. I can play it in the biggest leagues and score goals. And, and I'm going to prove my value or he's not going to get the time. And he's going to be a substitute. He's going to play here and there and he checks the box of playing in the Premier League and and getting minutes in the Premier League. But at the end of the season, guess what? He's already calling his agent saying, find me the next move because this isn't working because we all want to play at the end of the day. No one's, unless you're a backup keeper and you got a nice little your Scott Carson and you're at Manchester City and saying, Hey, I'm good. I'm happy. I'm happy being the back of the keeper and the world's play a couple of games. Joe is still a keeper. The best. Yeah. Come on. Scott Carson's job was the best. All right, Tony. So we kind of want to, you know, talk about some players in their club futures and what is the right move to make for those players. Now, you were asked this question today. I'm warning footy as it relates to Valerian Balligan. And I'm told we can now hear your answer on Valerian Balligan. Onto our next one. And everyone, a full on Valerian Tony, where do you want him to go? Obviously had the the breakout World Cup. He's with Monaco and his contract Merrick Spies in 2028 as well. Yeah, my first inclination always for, you know, testing yourself is going to the Premier League. I don't know if that's the smartest move right now for him. Sunderlin, who do they have? Isador and Brobi, right? Tottenham, that could be a fit for him. I do. I do. I do like Juventus because they've struggled at the forward position. Obviously getting rid of Valerian Chopin, Jonathan David. I like Juventus here. So I'm going to go Juventus as probably the most solid choice. Tottenham would be a really, really interesting one. That's a challenge. Yeah, that's that's like the next sort of step for Valerian. Don't you feel like he's been at that intermediary step for so long that like yeah after this good World Cup and and have scored goals in Champions League, right? And had a run last year where he scored to like an eight games in a row was really good at the World Cup. Like Tottenham would be sort of the the ceiling if you will. But I think you go to Juventus and you change the fortunes of Juventus and potentially get them back in the Champions League at a massive club. Charlie, if you're picking between those two, which of the two of them strikes you as a better move for Bello. Tony, spot on the Juve. I think Juve would be a great club from one in Italy, a quick a loose up striker like Baligan, who's a great finisher. You could thrive in Italy. And for me, that's a great spot because his athleticism combined with his ability on the ball. I think we'll make him an immediate danger. Think about some of the strikers, the smaller strikers over the course of the past 20 years in Syria that have have excelled. You don't have to be a big physical guy to have to have fine success in Italy. The Premier League Tottenham would deserve he could be interesting. Like Tony said, but it's such a grind. And Newcastle's definitely not the spot. Sunderlin is definitely not the spot. So I think if you are making a comparison, sure he might be paid a lot more with Tottenham. It's under a new project with deserving. So there's some exciting elements to it. He is an arsenal guy that kind of feels probably a little weird. At some point, I know you got to get over that, but Juve seems like a perfect club for him. By the way, he'd be playing with Weston McKinney. Yeah. The choices I had in that were the state Monaco, Juventus, Tottenham, Bruce Adortman, who I didn't give a lot of. I was thinking about Garasi in my head. I didn't give a lot to that. And Sunderlin, the other, we're obviously the other choices I had in that meter that we had there. I like Juventus. I think if the reason I would like, and I probably should have said this in the moment, the reason I like Tottenham, if it were to happen, it would be because the manager who just got there is the guy who brought you there. Which means that that's the guy who picked you to be there. So you know how that goes. How many guys the manager goes and a guy gets fired. And before you know it, you're in the wilderness. So if he does go to Tottenham, if that is an option, then it would be with the manager that picked him to go there. So that would be certainly a positive. But I like Flo Balagin's game, man. With the endorsement of Deserby with a team that I think is going to be on the rise of the season, I think they're they're definitely going to have a major lift in terms of what they deliver weekend week out. They don't have European football to contend with. I think Balagin can step into a role and be a significant upgrade. I would say on Rich Arles and at the very least, and you're competing with Dominic Salanki who might get back to being fully fit again or might have the same injury problems he's had for the last several seasons now. So I would really like that one. Let's talk about a few other players that maybe could potentially be on the move in this summer. I guess we'll start first with Malik Tillman who obviously had such a good world cup up until the game that they lost against Belgium. I think showed a versatility in playing in that number eight kind of role. He was always thought of as a number 10, but he played really well in the number eight role in the US. What kind of move, Charlie? Because we're talking about a player that was bought for 35 million euro at a time to buy a levercuse. And there's only a certain kind of club that can spend that kind of money to bring him in. So what do you see is in his future, if there is a move to be at all? Yeah. Well, when you're talking about Malik Tillman on top of his brilliant world cup, I think it a really strong world cup is the fact that we've seen him excel in Champions League. So it has to be to a Champions League level club. That's without a doubt. Now, if we're going through teams where, okay, he could make a difference. Like the Premier League would not be a league that I would say, ah, this is first choice in my mind. But if I had to say a club in the Premier League, Austin Villa, Unai Emery with Tillman's leaving, you know, it feels like that could be a great spot for him. And I have a feeling that he wants to go to the Premier League, just because that's where young players want to really prove themselves. It's, quote, unquote, the best league in the world, the most money in terms of the biggest leagues in the world. If we want to talk about other countries that I think he'd be a great fit in in Spain, and for me, Villarreal, playing in Champions League, they could use his quality being an eight in that midfield. They have some quality players. I mean, think about Mika Tatsue and Tasia and Buchanan's at that club. But, you know, Alex Freeman has, having a US teammate there, and we know what a work up Alex Freeman had. But I could see him being a star in that team. So, I just want to see him get go to a club where he's going to be trusted. And I go back to always what Ernie Stewart said. He just have to believe in him and let him be who he is. And he will shine. He's just, he's not the most outgoing type of player. He's a little bit of an introvert. But when he talk about quality on the pitch, phenomenal. So, he, he, he showed what a, what a true player is and he, I don't think he's even come close to touching his potential. Tony Tillon. Yeah, no, I'm with Charlie. That conversation with Ernie Stewart struck a chord when we had it. Because if you remember back at that time, we were waiting for him to give us the same form on the national team that he would give us weekend and week out at the club level. And we hadn't seen it up until I think it was the gold cup, right? It was really a sort of his breakout for the US men's national team. And then all of a sudden, we saw this guy flourish, right? And under Pogetino, I think he gave him the reins to say, you know, you're my guy. Go, go in the middle of the park and make things happen. And the, the, the money that they spent at lever cruising, was that the highest they spent at that point at lever cruising? Because I don't know that they're, it had to be close to the highest at lever cruising. Yeah, there are a few others in that window that they brought in, which is a pretty big expenditure. Right. So, but anyway, for a club like that, it's not like primarily, spend 35 million all the time, right? The Premier League clubs. It's not like lever cruising was spending that their entire sort of existence, right? They just don't have the money to do that. So they're going to have to recoup some of that money. The teams that can afford to make $35, $40 million mistakes are, are clearly Premier League teams, right? We seen it before, but I don't know that he would be a mistake. But I'd like to, I'd be surprised if he was on the move right now, but I would like to see him take the next step because I think he did that. And by the way, talk about an American player who has gone about his, up until this by lever cruising part where, you know, the, you get into a situation where the club who, the coach who wants you is, is sacked within, within a month. But he went on loan to Rangers. And I think that loan really showed him what it means to be physical and be stronger on the ball because he is, he appears to be frail, right? As a young, when he was younger. That, that lead tough in them. And he showed he could do it. And then going to PSV, what a brilliant move that was. So taking the right step. I think he's, he's gone about it with a, a real, you know, conscious motive, adding in to each spot, knowing that this will be the right place for me to play and the right fit. Yeah. And it is worth noting that by lever cruising, do you have a new manager, Carlos Martinez, Novel, who arrived from Toulouse this summer to take over for Casper Hulman, who could potentially change things formally, Tillman, by lever cruising. So we'll continue to play transfer matchmaker over the course of this window, which of course still has about more than a month left to go. So I'll have plenty of that here on call what you want. Coming up next, though, we're talking a little bit of MLS and particularly some of these young players that are starting to emerge in the league as players to watch. That's next year on call what you want. And this is call you want. Welcome back. And we want to talk a little bit about MLS as we closed the show here and some really interesting debuts over the course of this past two match days, which come in after the World Cup with Anton Griezmann starting for Orlando City, Levandowski for Chicago, Kazimiro for Inter Miami beginning his time there. But I think Tony, as much as these older players, obviously are the headline makers and the players that a lot of people know are some of the younger players that are really starting to impress and not even just at the sort of typical customer clubs like Philly, who obviously have their generation of young players, Kevin Sullivan, even Neil Pierre has come through, but even you look at Austin and Irvin Torres, who's impressed. And Justin Ellis coming through at Orlando and Gozo, we talked about plenty at Real Soat Lake. How encouraging of the story is this for you that there's now probably a dozen players that are younger than 21 that are getting regular minutes and and look like genuine national team prospects. Yeah, you know, excited. These these young guys coming through make me right. And I go to you, Justin Ellis is the name that we've heard of the Gozo's before and the Mometees have gotten some, you know, a lot of love and some of these young guys at Red Bull, but listening to Anton Griezmann after the weekend and talk about Justin Ellis and say, you know, this guy's got movement, he's got pace, he's got everything. I think he said something to the effect. Like if he goes on this trajectory, he could be at a top club one day in Europe, right? And sometimes soon, I think he's 19 years old, kind of come out of sort of nowhere, if you will. Paramount has played him now, has given him opportunities playing next to Griezmann. So I'm hoping and I'm assuming that every day you're just sulking in the information like a sponge, right? And you're you're taking this information and just, you know, putting it in your memory bank, right? And looking at what the guy does every day and playing off of him and learning as much as you can before you make what looks like to be a potential move. But it's guys like that. I think I'm most, you know, I said last year I did my piece at the beginning of the year on Gozo, right? He was my player to watch last year that we did on Morning Footy. I have, I have fallen sort of in love with Mehmeti. Yeah. I saw him person, Tony, the first touch, the progressive idea, it's always about getting the ball forward, which is such a rare thing that you see weight of pass, the two, the three different ranges of passes, the speed of play, the understanding of when to go and when to slow it down, breaking up tackles, still, still can, can get better at all of them. But as a young player to see, to see all of that, oftentimes we see young players and we'll take like a winger who is just constantly on the dribble. You know, he's got one thing in his bag and he's trying to get and but he seems to have a little bit of everything. And I can't imagine that the influence of Michael Bradley is not paying off. He reminds me a little bit of Michael Bradley, different body frame, but in the ability that he has in the different areas, he is one of the, as much as the, the gozos of the world, the analysis, like the goal scores, Kevin Sullivan, you saw him this weekend, as much Charlie as they excite me, a guy like Mehmeti who has sort of that soccer IQ that is like the hardest thing to teach, guys like that really get me excited. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you. Mehmeti in his size, his calmness on the ball. You just don't see too many players like that. I really like Jude Terry from LAFC. I'm starting, we're starting to see Kevin Sullivan. Now the playing time he's getting is starting to pay off. It's not as if they have to get him ready to potentially sell him. You know, he's already going to Manchester City, but you're starting to see when what this kid has, right? The fight, the audacity. You want that from some of these younger players as they grow. So yeah, Mehmeti for me is probably the one that stands out the most this season, but Jude Terry and Kevin Sullivan have also been fantastic to watch. Yeah, and the kind of great thing about this too, I was actually scrolling Twitter before the show began, and I saw a Uruguayan account that was saying that we need to go get Justin Ellis because he's eligible for Uruguay as well. And it is kind of fascinating that some of these guys are now going to be picked off by some of the other countries. You see Mexico go into MLS and get a fair few players as well. But I mean, if the Uruguay fans are saying, let's go get this kid Justin Ellis. He got the Griesman endorsement. I mean, Julian Hall is up there as well. Obviously with his maiden name being I think it's a Crescius, how you say his last name, but I mean, there are any number of players that you're going to have. Competition Neil Pierre is going to probably have competition from Haiti as well. I don't know if do you guys see him? He's six foot seven and he said he's growing. He's six foot seven is towering over, you know, senior pros to win set pieces against the rebels. It was extraordinary to watch. He's one for sure. Chuck, tell me tell me what I need to know about Peyton Miller. Hey Miller's great. Tell me what I need to know. 18 years old man. I like what I see. So elite speed. Peyton Miller has quickness elite speed. Great instincts. Strong left foot. He's left footed player. What I love about Marco Mitchell bitch in this instance of encoaching him. This is for me development. He's playing Peyton Miller as a winger. He's a natural left back and not only is he playing him as a winger. He's playing him on the right side. So now he has to work on not just relying on his pace to get down the flanking cross, which is what he's done for most of his life. He's much faster than everybody he goes up against. Now he's got to be a little bit more shifty. He's got to be a little bit more unpredictable, better with the ball at his feet in those tight spaces. So he's developing him, which is going to make him that much better. So he just signed a contract extension. I absolutely love the kids in athletic freak. He can jump through the roof. So he's not that big in terms of height, but the guy can get up with with the best of them. He is able to have him on that right hand side. Maybe him and him and Freeman over there. Just to say and to have that ability of playing on the right or the left and being, you know, he's great defensively, but now sharpening his attacking tools. Yeah, he's he's one to watch. Yeah, I would be shocked if he's still in MLS. At you know, at the start of next season, I guess we'll call it because you can't you cannot teach speed. This kid's got elite speed, right? And sort of from me, I mean, Charlie, we've been working for two years now. He has the physical profile of an adult. And he had the physical profile of an adult when he was 16 years old, which is crazy. But honestly, I think the some of the best part of this is there's sort of this debate, especially around the all-star game of, you know, the big names are still the big names, right? It's messy. It's Griesman and Son. It's the players you're going to put on the poster. But this sort of idea of being a retirement league versus a development league with 30 clubs in the ability to attract stars. Why not be both? I think and to your point, Tony, what you said earlier, which was these stars, some of these players, it might be a little bit past their prime, but still have so much of it between the ears to import to younger players. It's great to have these guys around not only to sell tickets into win games, but also to import some of this knowledge that they're passing on to younger players. No doubt, man, it's important. You got these guys at your disposal, which a lot of players don't have around the world. That's what it's all about, right? Learning from all of these guys. So one thing we've become is a league that's not afraid to play young players for the most part. You can pick and choose teams that don't play young players, but you'll do that anywhere around the world. And we're going through this whole thing, this whole episode in Italy with what's going on with their national team and their club teams not playing young players. That won't be the case that we'll be talking about in our league, for sure. It's a great development story and we'll see these guys continue to develop with the all-star game going on this week. Very quickly, before we go, this is me going a bit off script here. Yesterday, I went for a walk down the beach near my neighborhood where I live in Connecticut, and there was a moment of positivity that I drew towards the future of the game. I went for a walk. I'll show you guys here on my phone. There's a picture here of kids who drew out a soccer line. It's soccer lines in the sand, and we're playing two on two in the sand. I always used to do that as a kid. I just love it. And I saw it, I've just kind of seen more examples of people in the wild playing games. People in normal settings on the street, making something out of the beach, I kind of feel like it won't be obvious, but there was a moment that came from this World Cup. As Charlie talked about, Tony, you talked about these formative moments that World Cups provided, this sort of impetus to just get out there and play. And that's what we talk about all the time. I don't know where I'm going with this other than to say, it made me feel good that there are people, just kids out there just playing the game in the natural way that we talk about all the time. Oh, Brazilian just go out and play the game wherever they are. And I kind of felt nice that even in you know, a beachy suburb of Connecticut, it's not exactly the inner city, but even still kids are out there playing and enjoying the game. I thought it was beautiful to watch. Love it, man. Love it. Thanks for sharing it. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. A lot of do it for this edition of Call Away You Want. Again, subscribe to the Golasso America YouTube channel. And of course to the podcast edition wherever you get your podcasts. Call away you want. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to you very, very soon. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right.