The Tactical Paradigm Shift: Deconstructing North London's Crisis & Mid-Table Revolution

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Arsenal were dealt a humbling on Saturday as Brighton ran riot on the South Coast. Today we'll be getting into how the Premier League champions were made to look so average. We'll pick the bones out of what is now Spurs' worst ever star to a Premier League season and then pick out some stand-out teams from the first five games. Well joining me in the studio, as always, on a Monday we have former England Goldkeeper, Rob Green, and a good morning. And the Athletic's career is changed. You've been in the wars. Are you okay? I'm fine. I have a fractured elbow, which is far from ideal and I wish I could say I even did it in an interesting way, but I didn't. I just fell over on a run. Here we all are. Going for a run is impressive in itself, so well done. Thank you. I'll take that. I was trying to do sprint intervals, so that's the last time. Well you actually. Yeah, I hate them anyway and I was like, this is good for me so much for that. Okay, but you're still joining us here, so we have people. I don't need my elbow to talk. Talk on my back side. I'm like normal. Just carry on, thank you. Rob, you've had a busy weekend. You're on Premier League and championship watch. Yes, good fun weekend. It was a couple of remarkable games in there and one, not so remarkable, but that all in all that, a lot to digest. Okay. Well, let's start with that thing because it was like Rob said, another eventful weekend of Premier League action, but maybe the most surprising result was Brighton's thumping of Arsenal. That's all their perfect start to the season. Come to an abrupt end. Care as you witnessed Manchester United's get humbled by this Brighton side during last week, but did you see this one coming? Well, no, because Manchester United have shown that they're really susceptible to a really good press and that they're really kind of vulnerable to direct attack, quick attack and everything that Brighton is so good at. I wasn't expecting Arsenal to be that vulnerable and I think obviously they slipped up, but it's massively to Brighton's credit in terms of how they played, how efficient their press was, how quickly and like efficiently they looked to her, Arsenal as soon as they got the ball as well, like that's what makes their press so effective is both how it's done, but also the end product. So yeah, came as a surprise, but a huge credit to them for how they performed. Did you find it even more surprising because it happened against Manchester? You're like, Arsenal, you've got a really good sample there of what Brighton said they're going to do to you. Then all of a sudden you come out and seemingly ill prepared for what is something which they would just rinse and repeat. It's a strange outlook from Arsenal that you've come into it. I think what you would say to give them a little bit of leeway, it's their fourth away game on the bounce and if you're going to fall flat somewhere, it might be there, but it certainly was a surprise of the result. We'll get onto the Arsenal side of stuff in just a moment, but you were at Brentford's win over Chelsea on Friday night as well. When you look at some of those results, does it almost emphasize yes, again, just how competitive the Premier League is right now? Yeah, how strong are we see it across Europe? How strong everybody is in the Premier League, whether you're what competition you're in is almost half the Premier League are in Europe and half of them qualified from the group stage. Probably because they're not playing each other in the group stages, but you look at the Brentford squad, you look at the size of it, anything I went through and I was thinking actually, there's quite a few Brentford players that are getting the Chelsea team. Two leftbacks for starters were probably getting the Chelsea team and they, one of them sat on the bench for Brentford. So you're looking at a centre-forward who probably Chelsea had loved to have as well as, you know, a competition with Gelpedro and Danny Wellback and then Kevin Sharders on form, he was outstanding again. They battered Spurs on the opening day of the season with 40% possession. They did had exactly the same percent possession against Chelsea and romped it and it was just so refreshing to see a team that says we can control this game without having the ball and we are so comfortable and so confident in ourselves and they did that and it was brilliant to watch. That last Brentford, let's get back to Brighton then because like I said, we'll get on to where this result leaves Arsenal in just a bit, but I think Fabian Herzler's side deserved their praise, don't they, and their flowers are after that performance. One man who was at the heart of it, I know you were super impressed with and have been for a while now is Pascal Gross. You know, since his return to the club at the beginning of the year, he's just been so, so impressive. Yeah, never go back. Yeah, that's what I said. It's been, he's been outstanding in that he is not outstanding at anything but he's brilliant at everything and he ran further than anyone but his sprints are less than anyone because he can't do that. And so he's got this point of being this engine that goes and goes and goes, but buys himself so much time on the pitch by being so clever. And from like, do you looking around, he gives confidence to everybody else in the team that they can make runs off him, that if he's going to get the ball, all of a sudden, I'm going to go because you're going to find me and that buys him time and you see the first goal, his goal. A Yari makes a run. There are other runs off him. He goes, oh, I'm in space. And it's not a surprise, but all of so is a surprise that all of a sudden are sort of backing off one of these players that is not scary, not outstanding. The one I likened him to the most is probably Paul Skulls in his stand there and go, well, we just can't get close to him. And when you play against someone like that, you should get tight, get tight. We can't. He always seems to be in space and time. And it's in its no surprise that he did it at the weekend, even against one of the best teams. Yeah, that's Pascal Gross, another player I want to touch on is Chema Andres, who has been in the spotlight after obviously getting a goal on the weekend, but a player that they bought in for 22 million euros from Stuttgart on deadline day. We know about Brighton's recruitment and it is one of the most sort of successful recruitment models in World Football, but again, this really feels like another smart bit of business. Yeah, well, so impressive is that he was kind of coming in for Malak Yelkouye, who has been so good and who Herzler basically gave like a bit of a rest too, but also a factor in it was Chema Andres height on the set pieces. And we saw that obviously with his goal. But I think the fact that that's been such a kind of seamless integration for Yelkouye, but also for the player behind him just goes to show obviously we know how smart the recruitment is, but also how well drilled the team is in how Herzler wants to play and how all the players completely kind of buy into it and know what they're doing, even if they're not on the pitch all the time, the trust he has in them. I think that's that's massive testament to the coaching as well as the recruitment. The recruitment never ceases to amaze, does it? I mean talking about Brighton, we've touched on Brentford a minute ago as well, how they just seem to unearth these gems and bring players in, doesn't matter who they're kind of missing in the team. Yeah, they're just really well structured clubs well organized and they cover every situation and it's not so much as to who they bring in, it's the number of the however's choice of who you bring in. So years ago I was talking to someone who was in charge of their recruitment at Porter and their whole system was built off. We sell that amount of players for this much every year and we bring in players for one fifth. And they knew the price of the player before that even brought him in and they had a choice of five players to bring in for every one. And they think we've got five. They're probably as good if not better than what we're letting go and they know and they have that confidence in the recruitment system. It's an age old thing. You're only as good as the players you bring in. It's also worth kind of pointing out though I think with those players like there's often this kind of thing I remember with particularly the one that stood out with San Gare on the first weekend where he completely kind of ran the midfield for Brentford against Tottenham who just brought in kind of Tanali Fernandez all these super expensive players and it's the question is always kind of why do the big six in the commerce clubs not go for these players? Why do they always seem to go to clubs like Brightford or Brent? Oh Brent. Brightford and both. Yeah. Listen, I was in Amy for a long time yesterday. Brentford or Brighton or Bournemouth rather than kind of going straight in. I think the answer is because these are really good places to develop and because the pressure is for better or for worse it's not as high and that's no disrespect to any of those clubs but you can see that players get more time to develop under a less harsh kind of spotlight. I think you can even apply the same to managers to an extent like Fabian Herzler doing such a fantastic job. He had a run of what two wins in 15 games last season. That's the sort of thing that somewhere with a spotlight as harsh as I don't know Chelsea or Manchester United or Tottenham Hotspur that can spell massive trouble for your job. And there were sections of the Brighton fan base who thought he should go and the club stuck by him and he has pulled through into what is an incredible start to the season. So it just goes to show kind of the benefits of a club that is more measured is less chaotic, is willing to kind of put long-term gain over short-term gain a little bit, I guess, and give players that kind of slightly less intense and less heavily scrutinised environment to develop in and players know that they can trust those clubs to do that and that's why they choose to go there. Yeah, I think that's a really good point because it was around, was it, but every time this year? Yes, I think it's been like this. It seemed like everyone was talking about how much pressure Fabian Herzler was on there. Yeah, and you have to give him credit and you have to give the ownership credit for not changing it. But like you said, the level of expectation is there and not every signing works, not every manager works all the time but you do have that faith in the system that they will get it right. What did they do so well then against Arsenal? Press was brilliant. And they pressed almost like in a strange Gagan press but it was one that they went in number. They went and managed to press sideways as well as much as anything and that was something that you saw Arsenal desperately scrambling back towards David Ryer to try and go out the other side because they knew that the press was on sideways and you've got to commit physically to get over to one side but everybody's got to do it. We're going to go into what Arsenal didn't do but it feels like that there was no point did Brighton take a backwards step. And so the press was always on. Even when Arsenal were passing forwards, they were pressing. Liam Tharns done a really good piece on this on the athletic which I'm guessing you might have read but it's well worth looking out for anyone that hasn't caused it like backwards defending or something like that. Right, well I haven't. Well, they did. Yeah, same as. Yeah, but I saw Brighton play Chelsea under her to a couple of seasons ago on the start of last season I think it was and it was bonkers what they were trying to do because Colt Palmer dropped into a bit of space much like where I had a guard was beer and just kick it. Just kick it over their heads into the half of the pitch that no one's in and it was a foot race. Arsenal didn't do that once. So they played into their hands a bit. So I think that as brilliant as Brighton were off the ball, Arsenal played into their hands and then when they got it, Brighton would just want touch and it's so hard to even gauge where you are on the pitch when you're playing against that. You've got players all over you and then you lose the ball and then it's gone and it's somewhere else and they're just pinging it around between themselves. It didn't always come off but the intensity on and off the ball was off the scale. What about Arsenal then because they were six wins from six in all competitions going into this one. Rob said there they very much played into Brighton's hands. Did it expose some concerns of vulnerabilities or are you looking at saying it was an off day they look flat and it's just one of those results? I think it can be both. I think it exposed vulnerabilities but also the vulnerability to that press that Rob's just spoken about. Not many teams are able to do that to them. That's what made it so impressive from Brighton. So I think that it's shown how teams theoretically can hurt them. In practice, how many teams have the capacity to do that? How many teams are well drilled enough fit enough physical enough to press aside that good for so long? I mean, we've got a lot better to spoke about respecting the game by which I think he meant doing the basics right, getting the simple things correct in the first instance, not panicking. I think the panic started to come in a little bit by the end and the frustration. You could see that in the incident with Declan Rice. But I think I wouldn't be enormously concerned for them just because I don't think that many teams either have the capacity to or will choose to play that way against them because it can be so fraught with risk as well. I can't see, for instance, a man's city side going out to try and press man to man against them. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you what I could see it from the first throw-in. So I know hindsight is a wonderful thing. And you gifted to it after, as I wonder if I'll tell you to had that game again, whether it make changes sooner or play something like Yorker Es from the start. Now what you lose is, you know, of course, you're footballing, I have us, but you've got a player who's going to run the channels where you can just turn them and maybe for half a game, 60 minutes ago, look, this isn't going to be a football match for now. We are just going to grind this game into ground and then go and play. So I think that that is something that, like I say, is a wonderful thing to have. If you had that time again, would he have done things a bit differently? Well, with that in mind then, do we think that this result could do Arsenal good? In the long run, whether it is Micka Latetta, looking at things differently, but also maybe a bit of a wake-up call for the players as well. Yeah, they set the standard now for a barometer of the low. You can't go to that again. And you talk about setting standards, you go back to the All Blacks and some one of the great sporting teams who said, you can lose the game. You just don't lose the next game. Yes. And all of a sudden you're saying, we are not going to have this feeling again. Because all of a sudden for Arsenal, it's a long three weeks. It is. I mean, has it changed anything in terms of your expectations for how you think the title race is going to pan out? No. No. It's those two at the top. They're going to go toe to toe again. Thank you. Right. It is time now for another installment of Go Keeper What? Yes. Your favourite part of the week. This is why I'm here. So talk to us then, who stood out, whether that is for better or worse this week? Yeah. A couple of examples of movement on when the shot is being struck. And we call it a set position. It's just how you stand when you're in goal, when ready for taking the shot. Now, Laman's got criticised for the goal against Fulham. Why didn't you use your hands? Well, it's actually to do with his feet in his legs. When they set a so wide apart that you look at it, his legs are about nearly one or the half metres apart. Now, to get into moving into anywhere from there is so hard, so difficult, you just can't do it. And then his hands are actually behind his body. So the movement he's got to make is so far away from where he is from the starting position that to get between his legs is nigh on impossible. So he actually does the only thing he can do from the position he is in, which is drop a knee and get down to it. Is it time for him, isn't it? He doesn't know where the ball is going to go. No. So with his feet so wide, is that because he's anticipating it's going to go in like top corner. So he may be thinking I've got more. Or is he just trying to get his legs to cover as much of the goal as possible? It's a natural instinct that is so hard to change. It took me until I was about 30 to address it and correct it. Did you just stand with your legs closer together? So if you said jump in one direction or another direction or move as quick as you could, you wouldn't start from your legs being really, really wide. So it's counterintuitive to do it, but it's almost like you're bracing for something to I'm going to be hit by a ball that's traveling at 75 miles an hour. Who knew that your brain would tell you to do something a little bit strange? But it's counterintuitive to do it, but it is instinctive. What it does do is limit your range of movement. And certainly between your legs, that makes it really difficult. On a flip side, somebody's brilliant doing that or doing it correctly is Alison. And we saw one save in the first half and he's so little movement that across the near post of a Nielsen gets across there and it goes back to where he's just come from. Now your instinct is to follow the ball move across the goal and move too far. He just stands and waits. And that gives him the opportunity to get back down to his right hand side. And sometimes when you're in goal, your brain's going a mile a minute. You've got people rushing across the near post. You're coming stepping back and trying to make a save from there. Alison just stands and waits. And it's a wonderful save. One that I think probably is really underrated for everyone because they say, oh, it's just down by the right hand side. It's not, it's top goalkeeping. Not when you know what you're looking for like you. Well, you know, or you've been in that position before. Yes. Or that. You were impressed with his eye and Suzuki, right? Yeah, I wanted to ask what you've made of him so far at Austin Villa Robb. Obviously, coming into replace, replace Marsid as I was really impressed. But there was one, I think quite early in the game against Spurs, where he made a save where he could have gone to ground quite easily. I think it was against Savio. But he doesn't. He manages to stay on his feet and that allows him to make the double save. I thought that was, you know, it means the first save is a bit less kind of camera ready and maybe looks a bit less impressive. But then he's able to, you know, the second would have been a goal. Had he not saved it in the way he did? Yeah, brilliant goalkeeping. A really good point that you say and just stand and just do the really good hard bit without the spectacular side to it. And it gives you the opportunity. He's been great. I think, I think the thing that's impressed me, everyone's talked about his Ranger passing because Gary never, never nearly fell over one pass. And that's what they, but he eats the simplicity to his goalkeeping and the ability to be prepared and set and the lack of movement. We talked about it with Alison just then. And it's in it's the same sort of thing. Just turn, be set, be ready. And that's what he did for that save. And that allows him to then just move across, be set, be ready. Having a cool mind in those situations is such a hard thing to do. And he's clearly got that. And that buys him so much time in those areas. Just as we're going to move on to Spurs in a moment, I wonder what you make of Anthony Kinsky because I feel like he's coming in for a bit of criticism again. He's in a horrible place in terms of how the team's doing it. And he's an excitable person. He feels like and it would not pick for desk sort of that sort of outwardly if you see him on the pitch. But when he came in, he's so young for his debut in the games, there was a lot of movement, a lot of what's going on. And it's such a difficult place to be when you're a young goalkeeper and your second guessing what your teammates are going to be doing. And then all of a sudden, you're second guessing yourself. You throw into the mix, you've got that temperament as well. All of a sudden, it feels like a lot is going on that can go wrong. Well, let's stick with Spurs then, because they're 32 to feet at home to Aston Villa confirm they're worth ever start to a Premier League season. Rob, rock bottom of the Premier League, were there signs of life? Maybe at the start of that game, or do we feel like this is just a continuation really of what we were seeing last season? Well, both. The start of the game, they do show signs of life. They just don't think because of the injuries that they've had, the way that this season, this season and last season has gone in terms of personnel. They can sustain it. So you looked at the saves that Suzuki makes. He made three saves in the opening 20 minutes. The next save he has to, or he's asked to make, is in the 8th, he 6th, when Spurs score. So there's nothing in the mid after 20 minutes. We did a piece last week on the tactical side. In the first 10 minutes, they put in five crosses against Everton. And then for 50 minutes, there was nothing. So there's a huge swath in the middle of the game where they just die. And you're just thinking, are you going all guns blazing out and really exhausting yourself? Or, if you don't score in those first 20 minutes, does the belief drain away and all of a sudden you're looking at it going, I'll cry here, we go again. They need that goal in that first 20 minutes. Otherwise, you can see the pattern that they're in. Talked about it being their worst start in the Premier League. But just to reiterate, especially some stats around their home form at the moment, lost 22 home games in two years, that is one fewer than the previous four seasons combined. Sorry, line one of the papers this morning as well, saying that since 2024, there's been more Beyonce concerts at Spurs than home league wins, which is not what you want to hear. If you're a first fan, is it? I mean, the world as a whole, is it better? Maybe we don't say that. Does it deflect away from certain oddities? Yeah. But it's tough, isn't it? Because after finishing 17th and back-to-back seasons, was it naive to think with all the change this summer? Obviously, it spent a lot of money, but that they would hit the ground running at the start of this season? I don't think it should have been. No, they appointed deserve the late on in last season. I think partly kind of it seemed because they wanted him to be able to have a running star. They wanted him to have a full preseason. They recruited heavily. And I think it's easy to look back in hindsight now and say, what was the, did they maybe buy the right players? I don't think people were really questioning the quality of these players at the time. A lot of the theory was also just if you put that many high quality players on a pitch together, they should be able to do something. You can question how much they spent on them, absolutely. And I think that was questioned throughout the summer. You know, if this doesn't work, the bar that they have set for themselves with the price tags is so, so high. But I think it speaks to obviously a deeper issue in just the culture of the team, the fact that they don't have kind of the experience of winning games together. They don't know, I was going to say they don't know how to adapt to different game states, but they don't know how to fit into any game state. Really, it doesn't feel like. And I think the word that deserve a use was fragile just to talk about, you know, as you've just spoken about, they started really well. And then as soon as things stopped going their way, it felt like it, it dropped off that it felt as though the maybe the click moment would be when they got that first goal. That's now obviously happened. But I wonder if it was almost a little bit of a sense of the pressure being off. When kind of Gallagher scores in, I think the 86 minute, then you know that there's not really likely to be a comeback from that point. So they get a second goal, they end up losing 3-2 instead of 3-0. It's something, don't get me wrong, but it's also the pressure was off them at that stage. There wasn't the expectation of this is the moment that we need the goal. It was just a goal is a consolation. Yeah, it's the what if there is no what if when you 3-0 down. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't it doesn't matter who cares. Let's just throw bodies at it. Let's just need to do that from the start. You need to play without the what if and it's an old adage. You know, do you stand in the dressing room and go, well, why don't we start before the opposition score that a net feels like Tottenham or a bit like that after 20 minutes. They're waiting for the inevitable. What do they do then? Because sort of another start that feeds into what you were saying, Spurs have failed to win any of their last 48 games in all competitions when conceding the first goal, which feeds into the fact that is this a mentality issue then. Yeah. And it's the hardest thing to turn around is being on the pitch and you're stood there in front of your own fans. But getting boot is one thing. Having your fans just have the resigned feeling of, oh, here we go again. That's worse. Because they've given up on you. Now, that might not be happening at the Tottenham stadium yet. But you sense it on the pitch and you have to have the steel such resilience and determination within there to turn around and go, no, I'm going to lift this and the hardest thing I've played in teams before where the older you get, the less you care in a way because you're more confident within yourself and it really feels like it needs someone on the pitch right now to turn around and tell you so to 60,000 people or whatever it is, just go, just shut up for a minute. Let me get on with this and let me take the game by the scruff and neck. I don't know where that's coming from. But that's what they need. That's in leaders. Yes, yep. Just turn around and say to hell with you all, I'm going to do my thing. And I don't know where it is. Well, not all the fans stay to see the girls. I don't think they're there anyway. Well, this is it. This is where it gets to. One thing worse than being booed and that's the clacking of the seats as people live. Well, the athletics Ahmed Wallid has identified a trend that explains Tottenham's terrible start to this season centered around their lack of cutting edge in the final third. You can read that over on the athletic now. I definitely do have a look as it is really interesting reading it. In summary, he outlines how Spurs decision making and execution has failed them despite these strong starts to games that we've been talking about here. But what it comes down to is how can you fix these issues? What can Roberto do about it? What could he have done is get a center for all the money. Well, is that it? He was asked about that after the game. If they made a big mistake by not signing a number nine and he said, if we didn't make any different decisions, it was because we couldn't. The answer being we couldn't get a number nine. So you spend 300 million and you can't buy a center for it. It seems odd. I, I, I, the sort of spine of your team out. That's the number one thing if you're a manager. Get yourself a good goalkeeper. Get yourself a good one or two good center halves. Sent me field is there and a center for who's going to be there all the time. That's it. And then the rest will come in and they didn't do that. They didn't get it. So like he's fine. Great. Not going to play all every minute. He can't. So get another one and they didn't. What are we calling Omar Mahmouj then for all the money that they've spent on him? Like, I'm genuinely asking like, what, what are we calling him? Is he a false nine? Is he a ten? Like, where does he fit into this? And can he be that consistent goal scorers? It feels like that's sort of who they've banked on to do it. But at the moment, there's not a heap of evidence to it. No, Omar Mahmouj scored all his goals in Germany with a Kiteke. Alongside a Kiteke in a 4-4-2. He was the little man of the big man, little man. So unless they're going to compel hardly change and I think it would be a good thing for Tottenham to do to go to 4-4-2. Him alongside Dom Salanki. There you go. Go and play. Just go. Be open. Just attack. But I don't think he's going to do that. Derby is of course one of the highest paid managers in the Premier League. We've already talked about the signings, the fact that he was heavily backed in the summer transfer window. At what point does his position start to be questioned? Of course, it's still very early into the season with just five Premier League games in. I think the problem is that the problems that spurs so evidently extend deeper than any head coach. What do you do? Do you keep changing until you find the one manager if there's one out there which there must be somewhere who can correct the mentality problem and correct the culture and the psychology of the squad? Or do you stick with this one who got them out of the relegation or who saved them from relegation and hope that that is enough to draw on? But I think it answers your question about when he starts to be under pressure. Like externally, I think it will probably start to build soon if things don't turn around particularly because he's been backed so heavily because he is a manager who has a very specific brand of football. He's very strong will. He has his way of doing things. So if it's your way or the highway, then I might end up being the highway at some point. But at the moment, I think the manager almost feels, and I don't say this to let him off the hook because he has a role in it. But the manager almost feels like that's not going to be the solution because the issues are so much deeper rooted. If you deserve he goes, then where do you go next? Who do you think can pull them out of this? I don't think they have an answer to that. So that's why I imagine they would be pretty hesitant to make a change at this point. Okay, joining us now is the athletics. Stu James, Stu Hello, great to have you with us. You are working on a weekly piece that ranks the performances of all 20 sides, which is where a serious undertaking, a lot of watching football, tell us about this process and how you go about it every single week. I mean, you probably actually really need this three-week international break. Yeah, generally, I can't stand international breaks. I hate them. I've found them so destructive. But I am really looking forward to this one for all the reasons you said. So the idea basically is that we focus purely on performance and not on the result. So the best way to do that really, or the only fair way I think to do that is to watch a game in its entirety to establish whether a team played well or not. I said that to my editor at the start when he suggested this idea. And he said, I think you could do it off highlights. And I said, no, no, no, that won't be a fair way of doing it. So yeah, I've kind of got this all-consuming process on a weekend now where I sit through every game. Obviously, I fast forward the bits where the ball is out of play. But when the ball is in play, an hour every game roughly, yeah, I'm watching that and making copious notes. And I find it really fascinating, actually. I think it's open my eyes to a few things. Some teams that to be totally honest, I probably wouldn't have watched that much before. I now get to see properly. And there's aspects to this that, for example, Bournemouth, if you looked at their position in the league table, you'd think they've made a really bad start. And you'd probably be questioning the appointment of Marco Rosa, purely on results. You know, they're forth from bottom. Actually, they've played really, really well. They weren't as good yesterday, but in the previous four games, I'd say they deserve far more than they've got so far. So yeah, it is focusing on that performance. So Bournemouth, I've got a bit of a soft spot for them, they've ranked quite highly in my table every week. But as some of their fans tell me in the comments, yeah, but we've got to win games. And I do understand that. That's how it goes, I guess, isn't it? That is a lot of watching football. Wow, guys, any ideas as to who stews three winners are from this weekend? So I'm guessing two of the top three would be Brighton and Brentford. I'm trying to think who the third would be. I'm trying to think if it would be one of Mount City or Sunderland. Yeah, I was going to go for a random out there shout and say, actually, despite defeat, Ipswich, going down to 10 men and staying in a game and playing almost nicking something against Everton might be a shout. Okay, so in terms of winners, then stew, are they far off? I have to say at the moment, I still have two games to go. I've saved the goalest draw between Leeds and Palestine. I've also got the crazy five three. So that was the kind as well yet. So I need to look at those. But I mean, I can send out for sure, Brighton would be top. I think again, something I've found interesting. And maybe it's an obvious thing, actually, but you don't get teams playing well for a full game generally. And actually, you might get a really exceptional 45 minutes. Sunderland were amazing at Brentford. They played so well for the first half. And then, you know, you'll be familiar obviously with this Rob. It's hard to sustain that over a whole match. But I think Brighton on the weekend, that's the first time this season. I'd say I've seen a complete performance where a team has been really dominant and they haven't told off at the start the second half. They've just maintained that level. And that was why I was, of course, it's amazing. They'd be Arsenal free-neil. But it wasn't just a result. It was how they played, how they maintain that intensity. Steve, I was just going to ask you as a player, you look at the games that you just touched on a bit there. But do you see a correlation between teams who are just really good at staying in games without playing particularly well? Because in the Premier League, that feels like, and it felt like that was a player. That was key. Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. I think probably the best example of that, Rob, I'd say. And this doesn't just apply to this season probably since December last season is Leeds. I think Leeds are a really difficult team to beat now. So picking up on exactly what you just said, if the first half, Ellen Road against Brentford's second game of the season, Brentford were outstanding. They were so, so good. But Leeds still managed to hang on in there. And then they eased their way back into the game in the second half. They weren't great by any stretch, but they end up getting a point out of that match. So I think that is so important. And I actually took my Ipswich there. I think if you compare Ipswich now with Ipswich when they came up before, they're far more competitive. Obviously they've signed a different profile of player. It feels like before they sign players almost as part of a plan to come back up again, to be strong in the championship. Whereas this time I feel they've signed players thinking, no, we want to try and stay up for season. Maybe using Sunderland's blueprint. And yeah, you know, they, as you said on the weekend, they, my mind, I'm probably not going to put them as high as you suggested, but you've now got me worried, Rob. And I tie myself in a not so serious every week. I'm thinking, I know, I've got this all badly wrong, but it's huge. But they were absolutely in that game. And it was a shame actually sending off, because Fatter was playing well. And he was kind of at the heart of Ipswich's best moments. And from then on, obviously, it becomes really difficult with 10 men. But yeah, that, that trait, I'd say, is a big part of what has made Leeds so good under Daniel Farker for, yeah, the last nine months or so. See what you're doing. You're basically sub-editing Steve's piece for him. Well, that needs to be done too. It is, it is an interesting phenomenon. Because on the pitch, you can turn around at the end of the game and you think, oh, we played well there. Didn't win. We played well again. Didn't win. And then all of a sudden, that becomes a worrying pattern. Because at some point, you're not going to play well. Right. We are five games into the Premier League season. So I'll ask you all just a few questions on what we've seen so far. So Rob, which team or player have you been most impressed with so far? One of, I've really enjoyed Hall in how they've just gone about their business unapologetically simple. And as a unit exploiting their good moments to the maximum. I don't think they're ever going to blow a team away. They're never going to score more than two goals in a game. But they're always going to be in a game. And so far, they've, I mean, they're just going to be cock-a-hoop despite a defeat against Newcastle that weekend. It's true if they've been up there in your, in your rankings, some weeks. Absolutely. And even on the weekend against Newcastle, they go two goals behind. But second half, they were so good. And they're actually close to getting a point at the end. So yeah, I'm really impressed with them. As Rob says there, they're so, you know, the way they're organized, they're really difficult to break down. And they've also got some quality too. I think Ballumi's been great. He's a player I don't really know anything about. And talking to the point I made earlier. I mean, you know, we learn about players and teams. And yeah, he's capable of creating something out of nothing. And you need a kind of maverick like that, I think, especially when you're playing in the way he'll do. And I don't say that disrespectfully, but being hard to beat, difficult to break down, who's going to give you that little opportunity maybe on the counter attack? And he's been terrific. So that's who's impressed so far. Carris, which team or player have you been most disappointed? I mean, you're smiling. I know. I'm not sorry. I think I'm going to say, yeah, I mean, Manchester United, obviously, really disappointed in terms of results so far. I think performance wise, there have been flashes where they have played well, where they have played good attacking football, but coming back to what you were saying about the inability to play well across a whole game. I mean, if you want to look at Brighton as kind of a complete 90-minute performance on the weekend, then I think you can look at Manchester United's performance against Fulham as the exact opposite of how they just switched off for large periods. I think they've been guilty of that in multiple games. So yeah, and it feels a really long international break for them now. I mean, that they will be extremely grateful to salvage an equalizer yesterday on Sunday at Fulham, to at least avoid it being a defeat going into the international break, but that there is so much for them to fix in the coming weeks, to transform kind of these positive signs that occasionally we see and that Michael Carrick will kind of talk about to transform those into results feels like a really big task. Stuart, what's the highest you've had Manchester United? Actually, the five-two-it switch win was high, and that's not just necessarily reflective of that game. Sometimes, Emma, there's some weird game weeks. It can be quite hard, like, to this week's easier, there's some quite convincing results and convincing performances, or the opposite, teams playing really badly. But yeah, I remember that game week thinking, I don't think you really deserve to be that high-enighted, but I'm not sure I've got anyone else to put higher than them. I remember it's which played really well for the first 35-40 minutes in that game. So, yeah, that was one of their rare high-game weeks, I guess, but they won't be anything like that this week. As Carrick just said there, that's like a tough watch, you know, with United yesterday. Just a quick question for Rob. Just picking up Rob on what you said earlier. I'm interested, like, as a fan, I do really value performance of my team. So, when, for example, last season, I'm Swansea Family, we were away at Southampton. We played really badly, and Drew Neal and there's people sort of saying, who cares, we got a point, doesn't matter about the performance. And I just look at that and think, yeah, that's not sustainable when you keep playing like that. How do players feel about that kind of scenario when you're in it yourself? You know, i.e., yeah, performance, not being good, but getting results, do you worry? Or do you just think, so we're still getting a point, we're still picking up a win? Yeah, it's the other way around, from what I just said, is when you play badly, and still get something from it, you're delighted. Yeah. Because you're never going to get a 10 out of 10 performance, like we just touched on there. So many of these games are sort of small patches of areas of playing well. And that's for the Premier League, is key, is just holding on like leads do in the moments where you're not playing well. That's the bit that builds you as a team. When you come through those moments, when you're not playing badly, but you can get a 6 out of 10 out of everyone, and that brings a result. Because then you say, at some point, we're going to get a 10, a 9 out of 10, a 10 out of 10. So those are the bits that build you as a team. Conversely, if you've found a team, that you've had, that is a real yo-yo team, that will be a 1 out of 10 one week, and a 10 out of 10 the next, because that must be a nightmare as a manager, because you're just looking at going, I have no idea what this team is turning up. Yeah, that's interesting, because someone was saying they'd like to see this plotted on a graph, the performances, so that we can see who's playing consistently well, which probably would be someone like Bournemouth, even though that doesn't correlate with the lead table. And then you've got other teams like, you know, for example, Forrest, I thought Forrest were great at Aston Villa last week. They thoroughly deserved to win. They were really good to watch going forward, and then I look at their game against Coventry, which I watched last night, and yeah, it's maddening, really. I guess it's a fan, it's a manager too, right? And a player, to think, how do we go from this to that? And why can't we have that kind of consistency and performance? And I don't know, I think that's quite a hard thing. I'm talking to footballers over the years, and sometimes I think they find that really frustrating too, in terms of form. And I sometimes feel like, right, you're wrongly, maybe it's even more so, with attacking players, that they struggle perhaps to have that consistency, sometimes I say about not being in a game so much, not receiving so much of the ball, but wrestling with the fact that they have performances aren't 7 or 8 out of 10 every week. Yeah, I'd say Forrest would be one of those. I'm just sticking the table now. I mean, Chelsea. Chelsea, you're kind of, I don't know where you start with Em, really. They're just all over the place. But they are. I'm sure fans don't feel like this. From a neutral perspective, take the Brent for game out of the equation. They're actually, well, even that really. They're fun to watch the whole game. Alonzo ends up with five attackers. Like, Valentin Barker's on his own in the midfield. It's fun to watch in a crazy way, but the way they're concealing goals, that must be a real, a real concern, because that also is a hangover from last season as well. It's something that is deep rooted, that even changing personnel, changing manager hasn't addressed it. So, yeah, they've been quite chaotic, I'd say, in my rankings. Stu, just before we let you go, has there been anything that you've been proved right on or been proved wrong about so far, or anything that's been a real surprise? I actually thought, you're going to say that, I'm a digital wife, want to divorce you at this point. Yeah. You know, when I said I was going to... I thought that would be inappropriate. Yeah. I said I was going to Lincoln on Saturday to watch Swansea as well. That was like the final straw. Well, they're doing well, so you should do, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, proved wrong or right. I mean, my predictions are generally dreadful, but I didn't see this coming with hell. I didn't think they were spectacular in the championship last season. You know, Coventry were a really good side in there. They've struggled, or be it got a great win on the weekend. Hell, I thought would be... I didn't think they'd be competitive. I don't mind emitting that. And so, they've completely proved me wrong. Tottenham, I really didn't see this coming again, you know, after two very poor seasons, and obviously spending a lot of money in the summer. And I really thought, and maybe he's still world deserving, would turn it around. So, yeah, that's been like a shock for me too to see just how bad Tottenham had been again. So, yeah, as I say, don't come to me for a prediction. I think we all probably said the same to be honest with you. Stu, thank you so much for joining us. We'll let you go, because you've got a couple of games still to watch, and you've got to finish your piece. So, thank you so much for fitting us in. Oh, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed it. Right, before we go, and away from the Premier League, West Ham came from two goals down to draw two all at rivals, Millwall. You were working on the game for Sky, not in the den, you were in West London. And the safety of the studio. In the safety of the studio, which is probably for the best. How much did you enjoy that? And what was your view on all of the incidents, should we say? Yeah, it was an infuriating game for West Ham, and coming from their perspective, you're feeling, I think, Manel Solomon said it perfectly in another game. They wasted a half. If that 11 turns up from the get-go, they should win every game in the league. And there will be some where they won't, but that shouldn't be through the lack of being on it. And they just weren't. What they had in their favor was a tiring Millwall team and the lack of options really, Alex Neil was preemptive and went to five at the back just to see it through. And that invited more pressure. And so, should have lost. Could have won. One of those sorts of games, but two two after being two nil down, away at the den, is snapping their hands off. You'll take that. You'll take that. Guys, thank you so much for your company. You go and rest that elbow. I don't know if there's anything else you can do. Really? Yeah, I don't really know what I can do to it. I just got to leave it. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Just leave it. What are your plans for the next few weeks? I know you're obviously going to be here with us. I'm going to go walking. I'm going to go walking. Yes, I'm just going to go walking. I'm not allowed to do exercise myself, so I'm going to be, we should go on a walk. Yeah. Take the podcast on a walk. I can't pick you up. I'm going to fall over. So, yeah. Let's just sit down. All right. Well, big thanks to both of you. Thanks to Stu as well for coming on. Remember to keep across the athletic for all the latest. And we'll catch you next time.